KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[DaveKCMO]

Since it does sound like a new district would need to form, I wonder how likely it is that the vote would be similar?

unknown, since this stuff started happening: http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... -good.html

[KCMax]

3 Keys for Drawing Drivers to Mass Transit

First they recommend that transit agencies pay more attention to rider perceptions. Too often, argue the researchers, transit operators evaluate service quality based on criteria they consider important — even if riders don't feel the same. If a bus system has a good average reliability throughout the day, for instance, that might not matter to a rider who has a bad experience during rush hour.

...the researchers tout fare or ticket integration programs that make the riding process simpler and, in many cases, even cheaper.

New residents to an area might be particularly inclined to switch travel modes, for instance, so programs that target this subset of the population may be cost-effective and successful.

[flyingember]

there's three parking lots on the west and southwest of the river market that would be good infill options.

the city should sell the extra two lots to developers of residental space and use the funds raised to put in a parking garage with free parking

a free garage along the line will drive down the cost of paid parking on the weekend.

more residential drives up property values, decreasing the ability to have a big parking lot, empty lot or air filter company

the river market is already a focal point of downtown on the weekend. making it easy to park next to a streetcar stop would help drive usage. the city doesn't own any garages along the line today. the river market is already basically at parking capacity

[flyingember]

are there any new traffic laws being implemented to account for the streetcar and could also help busses?

like with school busses, will it be illegal to pass the streetcar on the left by using a center turn lane?
will there be any transit signal cycles at the two-lane segments north of 9th to let the streetcar go first?
will there be additional fines for failing to yield for turns onto Main?

[smh]

are there any new traffic laws being implemented to account for the streetcar and could also help busses?

like with school busses, will it be illegal to pass the streetcar on the left by using a center turn lane?
will there be any transit signal cycles at the two-lane segments north of 9th to let the streetcar go first?
will there be additional fines for failing to yield for turns onto Main?

I think passing in the turn lane is always illegal, however I have also wondered how big of an issue this will be when the streetcar is stopped.

[WinchesterMysteryHouse]

Driving downtown today and its like being a checker on a checkerboard, stopping every block for those damn redlights. Which thread discusses the streetcar stopping once a block?

[flyingember]

Driving downtown today and its like being a checker on a checkerboard, stopping every block for those damn redlights. Which thread discusses the streetcar stopping once a block?

it depends on light timing how many blocks one goes. I find Broadway to be easier to cross downtown, though.

I imagine light timing on Main will be done to help the streetcar.

[KCMax]

A streetcar named delusional in KC

Reduction of service from current level. Transit must be a tool for effectively and economically moving people. Based on the number of streetcars and number of hourly trips envisioned, as presented in an information session I attended, there may very well be fewer trips on that route than currently served by the MAX bus line

Yet in this transit issue, we are a follower instead of an innovator. How many electric-powered shuttles and charging stations can you get for $100 million?

Couldn’t we design the shuttles like moving iPods, with free WiFi and a safety person on board? Couldn’t we use smart information technology to move routes around to meet the needs of people as they change over time?

Couldn’t we tie electric-powered workforce movers with commuter rail to the suburbs? Couldn’t we call them trams?

[earthling]

Hmm... this is concerning...

Reduction of service from current level. Transit must be a tool for effectively and economically moving people. Based on the number of streetcars and number of hourly trips envisioned, as presented in an information session I attended, there may very well be fewer trips on that route than currently served by the MAX bus line.

[DaveKCMO]

1. the first quote is bald-faced lie. the streetcar alignment is different than MAX, as few as 1-2 stops may overlap. you could make this same argument about similar bus lines (like the 47 and 51, which run on the same street downtown, but on different schedules and with different endpoints). technically, the MAX schedule is every 9 minutes during morning and evening rush ONLY. all other periods are 10-15 and on sunday it's an astonishing 30. streetcar will run every 10 for most of the day and the "off-peak" headway will probably only be 13-15 minutes since the route is so short. even still, adding streetcar on top of exisiting MAX service is a total net gain in the corridor. again, a total fabrication from someone who clearly isn't a transit user.

2. electric streetcars and trams are used worldwide, in some of the most innovative cities. electric shuttles have not been proven effective or reliable for significant investments and data shows rail produces investments that buses do not. bus routes do and will change! ours just did! and they will change downtown AGAIN!

[smh]

Hmm... this is concerning...

Reduction of service from current level. Transit must be a tool for effectively and economically moving people. Based on the number of streetcars and number of hourly trips envisioned, as presented in an information session I attended, there may very well be fewer trips on that route than currently served by the MAX bus line.

It's bullshit is what it is. No reduction in service as ever even been hinted at. In fact, the streetcar provides an increased level of service in that it is likely to run later into the even at a higher frequency than MAX currently does.


EDIT: What Dave said.

[earthling]

Good to hear.

[DaveKCMO]

that statement will not see print. it shows a profound misunderstanding of transit in general, not to mention this specific project. transit frequency will double in the corridor with the addition of the streetcar.

[flyingember]

I'm humored by this idea of having a "safety person" on each shuttle. Like they really didn't think through what they were writing.

Because if these shuttles are big we usually call them bus drivers
If they're small, that sounds like a taxi driver.

[chaglang]

As appealing as "shuttles like moving iPods, with free WiFi and a safety person on board" sounds, I prefer the old standby: "a boat on a river, with tangerine trees and marmelade skies"

Both equally plausible.

[DaveKCMO]

Article has been corrected.

[smh]

Article has been corrected.

In print? It looks the same on the website, to me.

[DaveKCMO]

it currently says:

UPDATED PARAGRAPH

Duplication of some service. Based on information provided by streetcar proponents, the streetcar will run fewer times an hour than the MAX bus line does now. So to maintain existing levels of service both the streetcar and MAX will need to operate along part of the route. Transit must be a tool for effectively and economically moving people, and this plan does not do that.

it used to say:

Reduction of service from current level. Transit must be a tool for effectively and economically moving people. Based on the number of streetcars and number of hourly trips envisioned, as presented in an information session I attended, there may very well be fewer trips on that route than currently served by the MAX bus line

i haven't checked today's print edition. i should note that the statement "fewer times per hour" only applies to the brief 7-9A and 4-6P peak M-F periods for MAX, which claim 9 minute headways (and we all know how well that works, in practice). all other weekday headways are 15 minutes.

the streetcar will run 10 minute headways from 6A to 9P M-Th and all day friday/saturday 6A-2A. the non-peak headway will probably be in the 13-15 minute range. all of these headways dramatically exceed those offered by the MAX within the downtown corridor, including later hours on friday/saturday.

the actual average wait time for a 10 minute headway is actually only 5 minutes -- meaning the average amount of time riders would wait is 5, taking into account the fact that not everyone shows up at the station the full 10 minutes before the next streetcar arrives.

in short, the guy has no idea what he's talking about and is clearly trying to make waves with his first piece for midwest voices. i guess he has succeeded. the fact is that there will be far more downtown trips on streetcar than there will ever be on main street MAX. even the edited version is still misleading.

[DaveKCMO]

confirmed: the print edition was "corrected".

[earthling]

Is disappointing the streetcar will still be dependent on MAX but that's just out the gate. The author of the article is not seeing the longer term bigger picture at all, not even making an attempt to.

I'm very critical about the cost effectiveness of streetcar/street LRT vs bus yet still overall favor at least one or two lines to start with. Before streetcar had tangible momentum I was in favor of commuter rail into city and many more MAX lines through city core. I think it costs <$4M per mile for MAX (OK, it's not true BRT but works very well for those already willing to ride bus). It costs $50M per mile for streetcar. We could have MAX lines down every corridor from downtown to Plaza (Troost, Gilham, Main, Bway, SW Tfway, State Line) for the cost of one streetcar and then some. Streetcar will literally be no more effective and potentially may run less often than MAX. If MAX has to be run in parallel anyway, it serves even less purpose and is then literally touristy frou frou or specifically for anti-bus people.

So frankly in the short term/small picture, streetcar does not seem to be cost effective, but I do think we need at least one or two lines and once people get into it, some will start using bus feeder lines. We can then focus on more MAX lines, which gets much more bang for the buck.

Commuter rail from the burbs will be much more doable in the minds of suburbanites if there is a streetcar line in city that gets them to all the major hot spots of the core. Existing bus riders like me don't need streetcar but in order to kickstart a broader use of transit in KC metro, this streetcar line is needed to start the momentum.