Is the P&L District underwhelming? 100% serious question

[KCPowercat]

Mark my words on that restaurant prediction.

[LenexatoKCMO]

Haha.  That's so ridiculous I almost laughed outloud.  You know why nobody from the 30-50 age range is moving downtown? 

Because KCMO has NO SCHOOLS.  It's not because P&L only appeals to "youthful partiers."  It's not because people are priced out of the market.  It's because once you have kids - generally the +30 demographic - you've gotta move to the burbs.

You descrbe a recipie for imminent population plateau.  As we are seeing very few twenty-somethings can afford DT condos or four figure urban rents.  KC has a limited existing supply of us DINKs and the GLBTs, so if the population is going to rise significantly DT is going to have to become a place that can attract traditional hetero, 30-50 year olds, kids or not.  

[KCPowercat]

The supply of both is growing....just because you might not fit that demo anymore doesn't mean there aren't more behind you that do.

[LenexatoKCMO]

Mark my words on that restaurant prediction.

Hell even if they landed a relatively lame celebrity chef like Paula Dean or Rocco D., it might not succeed at luring Chrizow or LenexatoKCMO, but it would put restaurant row way up higher on the local restaurant map than it is now.  

[trailerkid]

i would say that outside of your Jones Pool/Mosaic/Shark Bar contingent; P&L isn't a very popular idea among KC's mainstays or even suburbanites. That is 110% the problem. Cordish didn't win us over. I think they started to understand the market wanted more local stuff after a while, but they haven't delivered anything that changes the market. Downtown is a destination for nightlife and event-programming and little more. It's incredible the South Loop got cleaned up and the results are much better than some similar urban experiments (see Block E MPLS & Houston Pavillions). They were given the burden to change things and the results have been quite mixed at best.

What do you tell tourists/friends about p&l?  Most KC residents shrug it off and talk it down.....instead of talking up amc or the grocery or bristol, etc. Gotta be too cool for school and only like grinder.

i get where you're coming with this. i really do. people in KC like to bash KC. it's really annoying. if P&L was in OKC or Omaha, everyone would be bragging about it instead of finding a reason to knock it. however, KC is not OKC, Omaha, Wichita or Des Moines. KC seems much more jaded and conservative whenever something comes along to shake up the status quo. i think there is a big resistance to any sort of change in habits or infrastructure whereas some of our smaller regional neighbors now acknowledge the change as progress. i don't know how this all started in KC, but the mentality is that everything new is somehow already failure before its even complete. Everything that's new is somehow a threat and in opposition to the KC we know and love. Barnes helped shake this thinking and brought hope and momentum to a sad, dead, pitiful downtown through needed incentives. hopefully, KC gets its shit together soon because OKC, Des Moines, Omaha, Tulsa are all places with a lot of investors and believers. Right now, KC still seems to have few of either.  

[beautyfromashes]

Gotta be too cool for school and only like grinder.

Seriously, the Grinders crowd drives me CRAZY! It's like anyone who walks in there has to hate anything else in the city that's not on 18th street.  Grinders might be the biggest impediment to growth in the city.

[KC-wildcat]

You descrbe a recipie for imminent population plateau.  As we are seeing very few twenty-somethings can afford DT condos or four figure urban rents.  KC has a limited existing supply of us DINKs and the GLBTs, so if the population is going to rise significantly DT is going to have to become a place that can attract traditional hetero, 30-50 year olds, kids or not.  

This is true.  And I've always viewed this population plateau as one of the greatest challenges facing DTKC.  Funk can talk all day about city services being the reason why people don't want to live in KCMO.  While this is true, to an extent, the real reason is schools.  I hope Covington's plan can reverse this trend over the next few decades.  

At the same time, I do believe that there need/should be more non-affordable housing rental options in DTKC.  With KU, MU, KSU all feeding into KC, I believe there is a relatively high number of 20-30 year old young college grads who are now looking at DTKC is a real, viable neighborhood.  5 years ago, DTKC was not on many people's radar, IMO.  I merely believe P&L is the catalyst for this phenomenon.      

[LenexatoKCMO]

This is true.  And I've always viewed this population plateau as one of the greatest challenges facing DTKC.  Funk can talk all day about city services being the reason why people don't want to live in KCMO.  While this is true, to an extent, the real reason is schools.  I hope Covington's plan can reverse this trend over the next few decades.   

Bah - 30-50yr olds with kids have lived in the Plaza to Waldo corridor and shelled out to send their kids to private school for decades.  If the river to plaza corridor could ever gain the same degree of desireability people with wealth would move there and do the same.  But Mosaic, Shark Bar, and the Sprint Store aren't cutting much weight with those folks. 

[LenexatoKCMO]

Back to the subject at hand and Wildcat's thoughts about future growth - my biggest worry at this point is that we are going to see the handful of credible, local-ish items (Bristol, Peachtree, chef burger) falter long before they ever get the dining reputation of the district turned around.  If that happens then it will be that much bigger of an uphill battle to ever get any traction with and I would be doubtful they ever get a reputation as anything beyond a tourist trap for dining.  

[kcmetro]

kcmetro is ruining this otherwise lively discussion.

Just attempting to bring a bit of reality to the fantasy talk I'm hearing.

[KCMax]

I split off the discussion about families and downtown. I think its actually worth discussing, albeit in its own thread.

[KCPowercat]

Give me a local bbq, a good local Italian place and a named high end chain and dining is fine.

Even w/o that, p&l is doing an amazing job at brink.g new life and a heart to this metro.120000 people watch soccer on a Saturday on tv kinda proves that out to me.

[mean]

Back to the subject at hand and Wildcat's thoughts about future growth - my biggest worry at this point is that we are going to see the handful of credible, local-ish items (Bristol, Peachtree, chef burger) falter long before they ever get the dining reputation of the district turned around.  If that happens then it will be that much bigger of an uphill battle to ever get any traction with and I would be doubtful they ever get a reputation as anything beyond a tourist trap for dining. 

That's my fear. They, unfortunately, didn't have anything truly great out of the gate dining-wise to put P&L on the map as a dining destination. I would really like to see that happen, get people thinking of P&L as a great place to go eat, before too many more places go under.

[beautyfromashes]

I'm kind of disappointed that there is not more outdoor seating options, something with a great view of the city like the American Restaurant has except closer up where I can sit and look at the city and watch people.

[KC-wildcat]

I'm kind of disappointed that there is not more outdoor seating options, something with a great view of the city like the American Restaurant has except closer up where I can sit and look at the city and watch people.

This is where the Bice spot fits in.  Plenty of outdoor seating on 14th St.  Plenty of outdoor seating on the North side facing the courtyard.  Plenty of rooftop seating too. 

IMO, the Bice spot is the best venue in P&L.  period.  I think this would be a perfect location for powercat's Italian restuarant. 

[Highlander]

That's my fear. They, unfortunately, didn't have anything truly great out of the gate dining-wise to put P&L on the map as a dining destination. I would really like to see that happen, get people thinking of P&L as a great place to go eat, before too many more places go under.

A great place dining wise wasn't really needed, not initially at least, it was a high profile place that would have brought people downtown regardless of the caliber of the food.  If that existed, I think the area could establish itself as a dining center as the visibility of local places would truly be enhanced by the amount of traffic.  It seems like Bristols has enough of a name and serves good enough food to survive while the Peachtree was a bit behind in food (at least in my opinion) and way behind in recognition.  

My big concern is that as places go under, potential local (and national) replacements will see the area as an unacceptable business risk.  I think a House of Blues or Hard Rock Cafe, despite the obvious quality issues with the latter, was needed just to generate some foot traffic.  The HRC in Houston does quite well downtown even though it's a stand-alone development in an otherwise crappy downtown.  KC's downtown is considerably nicer than Houston's and far more accessible but it remains a difficult sell to business and the local population as well.  It's not a good place for a non-established restaurant that does not generate some hype to come and prosper....at least for the moment.

[butter_breath]

About a month back we attended a nation Acura car event held out at Jay Wolf, the night before one of the host arranged for the some of the group to get together to meet at the P & L, there was about 20 people that drove in from  Chicago.  The place was a drag, no wonder no one from the burbs (at least the people I run with) go there.  Or I guess talk it up to tourist, the place just sucks ass. Hopefully history will repeat it's self. Not too long ago downtown was full of independent operators, after all the smoke clears and KC is left holding the bag, the independent operators will rule the streets again after the burn out.

[trailerkid]

That is true, but they're addicted to prozac, not heroin, crack, or meth.  Comparing apples to oranges.

how long did you live in Lawrence? i'd say over 50% of the people i've known well from 2000-2010 have had serious drug/alcohol problems that lessened his/her quality of life. it's a great place to fit in if you have these problems because there are a number of others with the same issues which normalizes it in a weird way. i will say i didn't know anyone my age involved with heroin, but i learned it has/had a presence in L through a treatment program i attended. there are serious substance abuse problems in that town that are completely swept under the rug and normalized. it's a kids will be kids mentality to dealing with it. William S Burroughs being the poster child for your community doesn't exactly tell the world you're a particularly sober and lucid place to live.  

[trailerkid]

Even w/o that, p&l is doing an amazing job at brink.g new life and a heart being an event space to this metro.120000 people watch soccer on a Saturday on tv kinda proves that out to me.

agreed.

[trailerkid]

This is where the Bice spot fits in.  Plenty of outdoor seating on 14th St.  Plenty of outdoor seating on the North side facing the courtyard.  Plenty of rooftop seating too.  

IMO, the Bice spot is the best venue in P&L.  period.  I think this would be a perfect location for powercat's Italian restuarant.  

i'd agree it's one of the better spaces. so why did Cordish give it to a downgraded-bistro concept of a mediocre Italian chain? There is/was a Bice concept inside the Hilton Suites across from the John Hancock in Chicago that was one of the saddest restaurants i've ever seen in my life. Like P&L's Bice Bistro it was strangely decorated and unoccupied whenever i walked around it to get to the hotel.