Status and future of the River Market area??

[scooterj]

Rivermarket I believe also has more young families than other neighborhoods, there are always strollers being pushed around.  That is always a good sign

This has been a recent trend, too.    There are now babies and young children living in my building, as well as retirees, for the first time since I've lived there.  Prior to this year it was almost entirely young childless couples and young singles.

[ComandanteCero]

The most important thing the River Market needs to accomplish for the forseeable future, is to keep up the densities in new development.  Ideally, there should be 4,000-5,000 people within a quarter mile walk of City Market, but the likelihood of reaching that is slim.  I did some rough calculations:

Right now, there are 1,604 people in the River Market proper, by 2010, taking into account the Southern Railyard apts and the townhomes going up, there will be about 2,093 (obviously the big jump is from the apts).

(for the record)
Projected 2010 Population: 2,093
Projected Res. Density: 13,953 pp/sqmi

Now, over the long term, reaching 4-5,000 people wouldn't seem a big deal, especially at the rate that it's been growing, but there is a limitation created by small amount of land area the RM occupies (~.15 square miles), and especially by the number of vacant lots.  Although there are a couple of very noticeable lots, there really isn't that much empty space on which to continue expanding.  I did some Google Earthing, roughly measuring vacant lots (and throwing in the last third of the Southern Railyard site that will remain undeveloped after the apt project), and I got about 13.3 acres worth of undeveloped land (granted there are probably some buildings that will come down, but i'm going to stick just to surface lots and the SR land). 

Here's what the population/residential density would look like under different density scenarios:

If those 13.3 acres were developed at 5 Delaware densities (roughly 36 units per acre), we could expect a build out of 479 more residential units in the RM, or roughly 718 more people. 

RM Population would be: 2,811
Density: 18,740 pp/sqmi

If these 13.3 acres were developed at 41 Penn densities (roughly 64 units per acre, it's a 5 story building with ground level retail) ((the Southern Railyard apts will be about 326 units on 5 acres, or 65 units per acre)), we could expect a build out of 851 more residential units, or roughly 1,277 people.

RM Population would be: 3,370
Density: 22,467 pp/sqmi

If these 13.3 acres were developed at the scale of the 10-11 story buildings on the south side of Brush creek east of Wornall (these guys):



96 units per acre, we could expect a build out of 1,277 residential units, or 1,915 more people.

RM Population would be: 4,008
Density: 26,721 pp/sqmi

I think an average density goal somewhere between 64 and 96 units per acre is what should be aimed for.  Have these 10-12 story buildings on the edges, farther away from the traditional center, and have more 5 story infill the closer you get in.  (For example, I'm thinking 10-12 story buildings on the surface lot next to the Cold Storage building, and the land to the south of it.  Maybe have some on the western edge of the neighborhood, on the surface lots west and south of the HOK building, and if possible on that weird shaped block bounded by Grand/Walnut/Independence/Missouri.

Anyway, atleast that's my opinion.

[KCTigerFan]

Nice work Cero!

I think the another big factor in the evolution of the River Market area is the development of the North Loop.  That is where some serious residential/office density could take place.  The large land holdings there could result in high density that would be very close to the RM.  If the Loop is then made pedestrian friendly like they are doing to the South Loop you could easily see 3,000+ added to a small radius of the RM.

[ComandanteCero]

Nice work Cero!

thanks 

I think the another big factor in the evolution of the River Market area is the development of the North Loop.  That is where some serious residential/office density could take place.  The large land holdings there could result in high density that would be very close to the RM.  If the Loop is then made pedestrian friendly like they are doing to the South Loop you could easily see 3,000+ added to a small radius of the RM.

for sure, good point!

[chrizow]

What is exciting there? I've never once heard of anyone visiting Kansas City just to go to the River Market. If anything, it is a stop that may last under an hour if it happens at all.

i think the only places in KC that could be considered "exciting" to anyone would be maybe the plaza, westport at night, and the crossroads during first friday.  both the river market and crossroads are pretty similar in that they are very quiet with a few bars, restaurants, and retail scattered about.  omaha's warehouse district (i assume you mean old market?) is basically their westport/crossroads/river market wrapped up in one.  KC is larger and more spread out and our river market is less a focal point attraction than an actual living, breathing urban neighborhood.  it does have its attractions - esp. the city market which i think you're discounting in your remarks.  the river market is not exciting but it's a cozy little spot with a decent variety of restaurants and bars.  the crossroads is not exciting either and it's also not cozy, but it is obviously improving at a pretty fast rate.

[KCTigerFan]

I would say that weekend mornings and daytime at the City Market is probably the most urban and international experience KC has to offer.  It would be nice to see it evolve into more of a day and evening locale. 

[KCMax]

Good work Cero. How do you think Columbus Park factors into all this? I think its a neighborhood with tremendous potential.

[taxi]

Columbus Park absolutely factors into this. It's practically in the RM. Except for that damn bridge being in the way.

There is a 22 acre, 360 unit development about to begin. It lies from the bridge to Gillis, 3rd to 5th. It's pretty dense. Then there's the River Front/Port Authority/Forest City Land Group development, 55 acres, which I think will happen eventually, and will likely be mostly housing. And don't forget the East Village. That's about 100 acres of development within 1/4 mile of the City Market. Well, maybe 1/2 mile. OK, how about a 10 minute walk? Maybe it's time to start a thread about the status and future of Columbus Park. But don't tell anybody.

And while I'm at it, you all should come down here for 3rd Fridays. There are anywhere from 5-8 artist-run galleries, all within a few blocks. You can walk them, in a loop. It's a cool and interesting scene. Not a whole lot unlike what the Crossroads was like way back when. Homegrown, grassroots, cornfed, inbread. And don't forget the free beer.

[trailerkid]

The fact that you don't live in Kansas City is showing in this thread. There is quite a bit of pedestrian traffic these days. On my bike ride home from work, Walnut features a variety of places that always have folks around, including Dos Hombres and Antonio's. Keep on going and you have folks dining outside at Bo Ling's and Winslow's. Around the corner and you have international markets still open, smaller restaurants, the Wine Cellar, etc.

I'd argue that the River Market is our closest hope for a real urban neighborhood in the short term. The Crossroads is excellent but disjointed and the loop is still a ghost town, sadly. People walking their dogs alone transcends the pedestrian traffic of the loop on a weekend.

Besides, it isn't as if the River Market is impossibly far away from the rest of downtown.

The fact you live there is showing in your response. RM is not a special or interesting place to visit--  very few retailers, very few unique restaurants. I am familiar and there is a reason the reputation is the lame and staid cousin of the Xroads.

[scooterj]

TK, your responses make it seems as though you come to KC for First Friday only and that you think that's what the Crossroads is like every day.     

I walk through the Crossroads almost daily and 90% of the time I see vacant streets with crumbling sidewalks.   If I'm lucky I'll pass maybe 1 to 3 other pedestrians in a 6 to 8 block stretch, other than that the only street life I see is a handful of Mexicans in front of the consulate, a smattering of trendy people/hipsters sitting in front of 18th & Wyandotte, and Jocos walking to and from their cars behind the Freighthouse building.   Everyone else is in their cars.  Other than that a couple of small clusters of lunch spots, on a typical day I can walk 2 or 3 blocks on blisteringly unshaded, topsy-turvy sidewalks past business-to-business companies and closed galleries before coming across something that regular people would have any reason to go into at any time other than on a FF.

I'm not dissing on the XRoads, it's stuck in the same car-dependant world as most other neighborhoods. I'm just wondering why you hold it on this huge pedastal while while ragging on the RM when the RM at least attracts a large crowd every week instead of just once a month, has decent sidewalks, and has all of its bars and restaurants close enough together to synergize each other.   The number of Xroads restaurants open for dinner is probably pretty close to the number found in the RM yet they are spread over an area larger than the downtown loop. 

Seriously, look at your posting history.   You have been ripping on the River Market for years.   It's like an obsession.   But I just don't put much credibility in so much criticism levied from someone who lives 40 miles away.

[staubio]

The fact you live there is showing in your response. RM is not a special or interesting place to visit--  very few retailers, very few unique restaurants. I am familiar and there is a reason the reputation is the lame and staid cousin of the Xroads.

Seriously. I see it every day. You don't. I don't think I've ever been guilty of undue boosterism. I'm not claiming that the River Market is an amazing urban paradise, but it is a pretty spiffy neighborhood as it is. Come on by and visit. When was the last time you were here anyway? 2001?

[ignatius]

RM is in better shape than ever, is an appealing, comfortable _neighborhood_ and can/will get better.    The market is the most ethnically diverse gathering place in the entire metro.  It is most definitely a unique place in the city.  That isn't even questionable.  But it may not appeal to those seeking touristy sensory experiences as TK seems to think it needs.

Take a look at Toss' market pics and better yet, visit more often.  I live in Westport/Plaza but go to the Market area almost every weekend.  It draws other friends in midtown too almost every week.  It is clearly one of the epicenters of the metro.

[Czar]

I didnt know Trailer Kid did not live in KC, is he really Clay Chastain?

[ComandanteCero]

Good work Cero.

thanks!

How do you think Columbus Park factors into all this? I think its a neighborhood with tremendous potential.

Moreso than the bridge, I'd say the vacant land immediately around the bridge, and the lack of development/retail is a big barrier for pedestrians.  For example the distance between the eastern edge of the Bridgework lofts and the northwest corner of 5th and Cherry is almost the same distance across the highway between the RM and North Loop.

But Columbus Park is definitely pretty cool, and unique within the city.  The more we can do to bridge the gap between the two neighborhoods the better, but i think it's going to take a lot of time and money to make it happen. 

[staubio]

The more we can do to bridge the gap between the two neighborhoods the better, but i think it's going to take a lot of time and money to make it happen. 

First of all, I'd echo the props on your analysis. Enjoyable read.

In terms of connectivity, I think Second Street is going to do a lot of good in making that happen. It is going to continue as a trail with a park under the bridge area, which should encourage passage between the neighborhoods. I think that the more people that fill in Columbus Park, the better the pedestrian traffic will be as the RM will still be the primary destination for those folks.

I'd like to see Second go all the way through as a normal street, with development continuing under the bridge. Second could be the walkable corridor between the two neighborhoods if it was done right.

[FangKC]

That's actually a really good idea! Fang, I look forward to your 5000 word essay on the history of the River Quay complete with maps of suggested bar locations and names utilizing River Quay history. 

River Quay was an entertainment district around City Market in the 1970s. The Mob controlled the district. A Mob war broke out. Several buildings were blown up. People were afraid, and the area died.

[RiverMarketDweller]

That's actually a really good idea! Fang, I look forward to your 5000 word essay on the history of the River Quay complete with maps of suggested bar locations and names utilizing River Quay history. 

River Quay was an entertainment district around City Market in the 1970s. The Mob controlled the district. A Mob war broke out. Several buildings were blown up. People were afraid, and the area died.

Here is 4,000 words but no maps. http://crimemagazine.com/river.htm

[KansasCityCraka]

Make it like this! This rendering was done in 2004.

http://fearlesseye.com/portfolio/portfo ... front.html

[Brodees]

Make it like this! This rendering was done in 2004.

http://fearlesseye.com/portfolio/portfo ... front.html

I about creamed myself after seeing the final shot of the 360 degree animation.

[KansasCityCraka]

I about creamed myself after seeing the final shot of the 360 degree animation.

I watched it onew more time to give me happy thoughts while I dream, I hope it doesn't give me a wet dream