Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

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staubio
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

Post by staubio »

Critical_Mass wrote:and a trip planner is only useful for those who have internet connections...
and to obtain a physical map (route map, not system), you have to get on a bus...(correct me if I'm wrong).
They are available at the Union Station transit station, at the ATA, are posted at many of the stops and can be found on the bus. Some businesses and information kiosks have info as well. For instance, d'Bronx has a good collection of bus schedules.

As far as the MSP map, I find it harder to find out which routes are on which streets. There is no easy way to portray such a dense amount of downtown routes. MSP's map has its flaws and so does ours. The Chicago map shows which routes on which streets, but it is hard to tell where it is going because you can't follow the specific route. It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. It isn't hard to figure out what street to pick up the bus on. Yeah, you might have a problem if you're trying to go 3 blocks in one of these zoomed in areas.

I didn't mean to come out in such harsh disagreement, but this just seems silly to me. TRY using the bus off the map. It isn't that hard. You are zooming in on a few block area and blaming ATA's problems on that. If you are in that area, you are a block or two from all of those routes. On the greater map, it is easy to figure out where you need to go. You then simply find the bus stop for that route. Take a look at the WHOLE map sometime. You want to go the Plaza? Easy to see the 56 route. Trace that up. Oh, look, orange line. Look, a number 56 going down main. Look, a legend that says "10th and Main Transit Plaza." Hmm, darn map is too hard.
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

Post by trailerkid »

staubio wrote:TRY using the bus off the map. It isn't that hard. You are zooming in on a few block area and blaming ATA's problems on that. If you are in that area, you are a block or two from all of those routes. On the greater map, it is easy to figure out where you need to go. You then simply find the bus stop for that route. Take a look at the WHOLE map sometime. You want to go the Plaza? Easy to see the 56 route. Trace that up. Oh, look, orange line. Look, a number 56 going down main. Look, a legend that says "10th and Main Transit Plaza." Hmm, darn map is too hard.
Sorry to break it to you, but if people can't understand where they are going and what is going on they will never try using the bus. Just like I said, Lawrence has a very, very understandable transit system and newcomers here still have a hard time figuring it out. Someone is not going to just jump on a bus on the Plaza and let fate take its course.

My point with the Mpls maps was showing how much they simplify the downtown maps. Basically you hop on a bus there and it takes you a certain direction and you know when the next one will come according to the key. I'm sure there are more details on the routes, but have having every single route that crosses through doesn't matter to someone just trying to navigate downtown. I have seen the larger metro maps and don't have much problems with them and that's why I posted the mass confusion of the downtown map.
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

Post by KCPowercat »

the ATA also has a local number to call and get a route mapped for you.
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

Post by bahua »

I would love to see a js or flash(or whatever)-enabled widget that shows a map of the entire metro area, and/or maps of specific areas(the Plaza, Downtown, etc), and a list of routes on the side. When you select a route, it appears as a line with a certain color on the map, along with all its demarcations(transfers, waiting areas, alternates, directions), and would allow you to click it when it's up, to view more specific details about the route, like schedules, fares, etc.

I haven't seen that kind of interface on any transit system's webpage, and would make it myself, if I only knew how. But, it seems obvious to me.
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

Post by KCPowercat »

I was thinking that too....have the huge map then be able to select a route that is then highlighted.

With the abundance of web designers out there w/o a job, you'd think you could throw one of them a dime and have them whip that baby up.
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

Post by Tosspot »

Some more fun and laughs with the ATA... this is a tad off topic.

As you may already know, my dad is a career bus driver at the ATA. On those new buses, the suits who drive desks that designed the things just thought it was a great idea to have a little announcement go off that says "STOP REQUESTED" every bloody time someone pushes that button requesting a stop. I believe you can classify this as an example of the out-of-touch designers not consulting at all with the real people in the field who have to put up with their witless ideas.

That and the fareboxes, he my dad hates the fareboxes too, for whatever reason.
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

Post by KCPowercat »

I don't mind the "stop requested"...I believe it's actually part of ADA requirements isn't it? As well as announcing major intersections which the same system will do when more operational.....because it's not done now by drivers, which I think it's an impossible thing to ask drivers to do.
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Post by bahua »

Every single time I ever rode the 51 to and from work, they would announce Crown Center, 31st, 39th, Westport, 63rd, 75th, and Ward Parkway Center, unless the driver was talking to someone.
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

Post by KCPowercat »

really? I've heard one major intersection announced in all my bus riding times (granted not that varied). I usually ride after 5pm so maybe that's different?
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

Post by bahua »

I usually took the bus that left at 7:30 from downtown, and picked up the bus that left 88th & State Line at 4:46.
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Post by dangerboy »

I rode between Midtown and Downtown every day for 2 1/2 years, and only heard stops announced 2 or 3 times. Unless a blind person specifically requested a stop, and not always then.
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

Post by carfreekc »

The lack of consistent stop announcements is indeed a sign of apathy or incompetence or something at the management level in the ATA.

Incidentally, "stop requested" does not fulfill the ADA requirements. The ADA requires location announcements, not that a stop was requested. That's so people can orient themselves. Eventually those readouts that currently just say 'stop requested' will show and announce the actual stop location. Then they'll meet ADA reqs. From what I've heard, the system isn't in place yet, so for now they just say 'stop requested.'

Mgmt seems to be content to wait for technology to solve the announcement problem, even though they're not in compliance with the ADA right now and haven't been for a long time. I've contacted them before on this issue. I'll hear a few more announcements for about a week (meaning: on the 56 from 10th to Brookside, you might hear Crown Center, 31st, & 39th...maybe the Plaza), then it goes back to the usual lack of announcements. It's pathetic.

When I rode buses in Minneapolis on visits, every bus I rode had drivers announcing stops consistently and frequently. It really isn't that damn hard. Denver buses had more consistent announcements, too. But you have to have management that makes it an issue and enforces it, apparently.

What drives me nuts about this issue is the lack of attention to customer service it reveals. Stop announcements were intended for people with disabilities, but they help everyone. The system here often acts like the same 50 people ride the same buses every day at the same stops, so to hell with you if you're new to town or simply riding a route that's new to you or the bus for the first time.
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Post by KCPowercat »

agreed....they are waiting for techonology to get them in compliance.
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

Post by tat2kc »

Since I work with Blind folks regarding bus use, I can attest to the fact that although they are supposed to announce the major intersections, they don't, or they do it so low and so mumbled you can't hear it. They are also supposed to announce any requested stop. It is easily done on other tansit systems, so yes its apathy or incompetence. One concern I have with the BRT lines is the question regarding the LED signs announcing the time of the next bus. This must also be provided in an accessible form for visualy impaired individuals, and I doubt that it will be, short of a lawsuit. The ATA is one of the least accessible or disabled friendly systems I've ever worked with. Its damn frustrating.
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

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One concern I have with the BRT lines is the question regarding the LED signs announcing the time of the next bus. This must also be provided in an accessible form for visualy impaired individuals
Is this true? It's not a necessary feature to ride the bus, just an added convience.....but it still has to be ADA accessible?
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

Post by trailerkid »

carfreekc wrote:
When I rode buses in Minneapolis on visits, every bus I rode had drivers announcing stops consistently and frequently. It really isn't that damn hard. Denver buses had more consistent announcements, too. But you have to have management that makes it an issue and enforces it, apparently.
The Lawrence Transit System also has consistent intersection announcements. They even do the announcements when I was the only one on the bus. Seems like common sense to me.
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Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

Post by dangerboy »

This is one of the few cases where I would say that having a labor union is a bad thing for the users of the system. Management seems to have little desire or ability to enforce basic standards of customer service or professionalism in its workforce.

I'm about ready to say that KC should do the same thing that Johnson County, KS did in the 1980s - tell the ATA to kiss off and hire a private contractor to run the bus system.
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