main st. downtown becoming new westport?

[trailerkid]

Really good discussion...

Not necessarily, trailer. I know if I go to a "gay" bar or restaurant in KC, no matter how many straight folks are there, I won't be hassled. Take Bar Natasha for example. It is not necessarily defined as a "gay" bar, but gay welcoming most definately. I can go there with a big group of gay friends, which I do usually on fridays for happy hour. The couples I meet there know full well that they can hold hands, we can give each other a kiss hello or goodbye, without any problems. In short, we can act like a typical married couples. Not so in most suburban locations. In non gay friendly places, we'd etiher be asked to leave, ignored, or hear rude comments said just loud enough to hear. (Had all three happen). Its not so much about segregating ourselves, as much as it is about feeling free to let our guard down.

The rich comparisons this has to interacial dating is pretty striking. Everything you described fits perfectly into so many other groups that are/have been discriminated against.

But do you know what? These bigoted people will never change if we just builds pockets of town for the "discriminated." Just as African-Americans forced their way to lunch counters, buses, and drinking fountains...so must the glbt. It takes bigger balls than I will I ever have, to have courage enough to risk everything for the sake of social progress. It will only be through exposure that bigots change their ways. We need to see a lot more gay couples at Applebee's in the 'burbs, walking down the street holding hands, shopping at Oak Park. It is the old cliche "We're here, we're queer, get used to it." Eventually people will have to get used to it. Discrimination is rooted in socialized reactions based on ignorance.

[KCK]

Really good discussion...

Not necessarily, trailer. I know if I go to a "gay" bar or restaurant in KC, no matter how many straight folks are there, I won't be hassled. Take Bar Natasha for example. It is not necessarily defined as a "gay" bar, but gay welcoming most definately. I can go there with a big group of gay friends, which I do usually on fridays for happy hour. The couples I meet there know full well that they can hold hands, we can give each other a kiss hello or goodbye, without any problems. In short, we can act like a typical married couples. Not so in most suburban locations. In non gay friendly places, we'd etiher be asked to leave, ignored, or hear rude comments said just loud enough to hear. (Had all three happen). Its not so much about segregating ourselves, as much as it is about feeling free to let our guard down.

The rich comparisons this has to interacial dating is pretty striking. Everything you described fits perfectly into so many other groups that are/have been discriminated against.

But do you know what? These bigoted people will never change if we just builds pockets of town for the "discriminated." Just as African-Americans forced their way to lunch counters, buses, and drinking fountains...so must the glbt. It takes bigger balls than I will I ever have, to have courage enough to risk everything for the sake of social progress. It will only be through exposure that bigots change their ways. We need to see a lot more gay couples at Applebee's in the 'burbs, walking down the street holding hands, shopping at Oak Park. It is the old cliche "We're here, we're queer, get used to it." Eventually people will have to get used to it. Discrimination is rooted in socialized reactions based on ignorance.

Or the same thing could happen that happened to black people. After they started frequenting places, moving in places, the white people moved out. They felt they didn't have to deal with it. I'm pretty sure that the way our society is, if gay people started showing up at AppleBee's, people would just stop going there, that is the way the underground prejudice works in our society. Believe me.

[tat2kc]

you guys are both right! I certianly don't change my behaviour because of where I am. There are certian public behaviours that are acceptable wherever you are, and I have no problem with seeing two men or two women kiss hello or goodbye. (in many many countries and cultures its not an issue). I do that with my partner, no matter where we are, or where I am meeting him. We don't make it a big deal, its the same as what other couples do. My friends do the same. I don't even think about it anymore. Luckily, in most places in the metro area, its never been a problem.

I think Americans in general are so hung up on sexuality in general. I think that by making sexually related issues such a big deal that we are screwing people up! (actually people are freaked out by anything that is not White-anglo-protestant-male, which is odd considering those folks are in the minority!)

[FangKC]

A gay bar serves three primary purposes: 1) It is the one place where you can ask someone of the same sex to dance; buy them a drink; or ask them out without anyone freaking out. In a gay bar, everyone is presumed gay (or friendly to gays) until told otherwise. So, no straight man should act offended if a gay guy asks him to dance. If a brouhaha develops, it is the str8 person who is asked to leave. It's the place where no one will give you crap for being gay.

2) It is a place for gay people to meet each other. Believe it or not, gaydar doesn't always work in the real world. There are gay people who don't send out any signals when in the str8 world, so you will never meet them in str8 situations. You can only know for sure if they are gay if you see them in a gay bar, or on Gay.com. There used to be "clues" one could rely on: ear rings; certain brands of clothes or shoes; hair styles; etc. However, str8s have adopted many of the same tastes as gays (metrosexuals), so it's become harder for gay folk to know who's gay and who's not when out in the real world. There are str8 men for example that act--or appear--so gay that 15 years ago I would have assumed without question that they were gay. Nowadays, I don't assume anything. It's so freaking confusing.

3. It is a place where all the music that will be adopted by the rest of the world will first be showcased and selected. This is sort of like American Idol, except gay clubgoers decide who stays and who goes.

[DanCa]

Interesting discussion with many points I agree with.

Another benefit I've seen to having a "gay district" is that it can clean up a bad part of town. Capitol Hill in Denver had turned into a dangerous ghetto in the '70s. Gay establishments moved in because no one cared about that part of the city at the time. Then gay men started buying the cheap, old houses and fixed them up in the '80s. Now you won't find a run-down house anywhere in the Capitol Hill area and the "reverse blight" spread to adjoining, not necessarily gay neighborhoods. It's a highly-desireable area with skyrocketing property values. I believe Denver also retains more of its gay population which leads to having an older gay population that can afford to buy houses. KC's gay population (I'm talking about people born in the metro area) tends to leave the city when young for more exciting places - like Denver.

Anyone else agree with my observations/theory?

[trailerkid]

Interesting discussion with many points I agree with.

Another benefit I've seen to having a "gay district" is that it can clean up a bad part of town. Capitol Hill in Denver had turned into a dangerous ghetto in the '70s. Gay establishments moved in because no one cared about that part of the city at the time. Then gay men started buying the cheap, old houses and fixed them up in the '80s. Now you won't find a run-down house anywhere in the Capitol Hill area and the "reverse blight" spread to adjoining, not necessarily gay neighborhoods. It's a highly-desireable area with skyrocketing property values. I believe Denver also retains more of its gay population which leads to having an older gay population that can afford to buy houses. KC's gay population (I'm talking about people born in the metro area) tends to leave the city when young for more exciting places - like Denver.

Anyone else agree with my observations/theory?

I think there is a lot of difference between commercializing the marginalization of gays and having social acceptance of glbt people. Seeing gay people as just another opportunity for revitalization of a city is cutting them short. i.e. "Let's give them the blighted areas no one else wants, and let them fix it up." It sounds a lot like the idea of reservations. Also, believe it or not, but gay people aren't all interior decoraters with "queer eyes."

It's the place where no one will give you crap for being gay.

This is where I have a problem. We should not build around ideologies of racism, classism, sexism, etc., but tear them apart. The problem is the discrimination that takes place in this city-- not that the discriminated don't have a "district." The problem is that the discriminated against feel they need a district.

We are way off topic and maybe should move part of these threads to The Bar, or create a new topic like: KC Gay District?...

[GuyInLenexa]

Interesting discussion with many points I agree with.

Another benefit I've seen to having a "gay district" is that it can clean up a bad part of town. Capitol Hill in Denver had turned into a dangerous ghetto in the '70s. Gay establishments moved in because no one cared about that part of the city at the time. Then gay men started buying the cheap, old houses and fixed them up in the '80s. Now you won't find a run-down house anywhere in the Capitol Hill area and the "reverse blight" spread to adjoining, not necessarily gay neighborhoods. It's a highly-desireable area with skyrocketing property values. I believe Denver also retains more of its gay population which leads to having an older gay population that can afford to buy houses. KC's gay population (I'm talking about people born in the metro area) tends to leave the city when young for more exciting places - like Denver.

Anyone else agree with my observations/theory?

Your are SO right. Montrose in Houston and Oak Lawn in Dallas are two other examples. Oak Lawn was the straight red light district before it transitioned to the hub of the DFW gay community.

I feel a lot more comfortable in a "Gay" area than a mixed one. The USA has not progressed enough for that, hopefully it will someday.

[DanCa]

I wish there weren't a need for a "safe area" for gay people too. But I think there will always be a need for gay bars because people trying to hook up don't want the added game of trying to figure out who's gay and who's straight. Just look at the problems that woman on that reality show (forgot the name) had trying to figure out who was gay and straight!

I'm not saying that KC should take a dumpy area and toss it to gay people and say, "fix it for us". But in cities with a good gay nightlife and population this seems to evolve on its own. Plus gay people generally don't have children (I know some who do, but statistically speaking...) so schools aren't an issue for them.

I live w/my partner of 8 years deep in the 'burbs but we don't go to bars/clubs and have found other gay couples in our neighborhood that are friends - as well as straight friends. But if I were single, I wouldn't want to live here.

[FangKC]

But I think there will always be a need for gay bars because people trying to hook up don't want the added game of trying to figure out who's gay and who's straight. Just look at the problems that woman on that reality show (forgot the name) had trying to figure out who was gay and straight!

That show is called "Playing it Straight." It's on Fox, Fridays (8 pm Eastern, 7 pm Central). I've been watching it and it's really hard to figure out. I have not done that well in guessing. The funny thing about that show is that when it was announced to the participants that some among them were gay, everyone started trying to figure out who was and who wasn't. At some point, every guy was thought to be gay by some other guy. There were one or two guys whom everyone thought were gay that turned out to be straight. The other funny thing is that once some guys knew that others might be gay, they became obsessed with finding out who was. It seemed to become more important than winning the girl's heart, or the money. Suddenly, certain guys made them feel uncomfortable. It was like trying to root out Communists in the 1950s. I wager that had they not been told that gays were among them, they wouldn't have felt that way, or said anything like that. It just goes to show people that you can't really tell who is gay and who is not.

I think another interesting premise for a reality show like this would be to place gay men among the str8 ones, but not tell the girl. The sexuality of the guys would only be revealed after the girl made her final choice. What does she do if the man of her dreams is gay? It would be an educational reality show because that does happen in real life--people find out after years of marriage that their spouse is homosexual. It would be a great lesson for the TV viewing public.

The other issue that I've always thought important in arguments people make (esp. the ultra-religious) about homosexuals is the whole premise that gays should keep it to themselves, or just surpress it and live a str8 life. Many religious leaders advocate this. The aspect they aren't considering--and that is rarely, if ever, discussed--is the effect it will have on str8 spouses when gays marry them. Imagine you are a str8 person who marries a homosexual, and you find out after 20 years of marriage--and three kids--that they are gay. You find out because they decide they can't live a lie any longer and want out of the marriage, or you come home early one day to find them in bed with another gay person. The str8 spouse's life is severely affected--as are the lives of the children. No one wins in this type of situation, and it is usually a huge mess that takes years to resolve.

Religious leaders--or anyone for that matter--who advocate that homosexuals shouldn't live openly, or accept their sexuality, never seem to consider the effect their moral stance has on innocent str8 people. Is it really worth ruining another person's life so that a homosexual can hide, or attempt to "fit in" just to satisfy the demands of society? Think of the spouse who loses 20 years of their life in a marriage that is a lie. They have been denied the opportunity to have been in a relationship with some other str8 person who could have been a true partner. I mean, geez! I REALLY, REALLY wish that str8 people would take some time to consider this specific point. Isn't it in the interest of society that gays marry--or enter into a relationship--with each other, instead of gays marrying str8s? I mean if religious leaders argue homosexuality harms the family, how can they advocate this solution, which ends up harming that particular family more.

I'm not saying that KC should take a dumpy area and toss it to gay people and say, "fix it for us". But in cities with a good gay nightlife and population this seems to evolve on its own. Plus gay people generally don't have children (I know some who do, but statistically speaking...) so schools aren't an issue for them.

Well, regardless of whether gays are asked, they will do it anyway. LOL. You are right about the "no kids" factor contributing. Besides the issue of schools, gays without kids generally have more free time--and more discretionary income--to devote to home improvements than parents do. Another theory I have about the phenomenon of gays fixing up old homes is that their home becomes the thing they dote on, while parents dote on their kids.

I live w/my partner of 8 years deep in the 'burbs but we don't go to bars/clubs and have found other gay couples in our neighborhood that are friends - as well as straight friends. But if I were single, I wouldn't want to live here.

That is why I left Phoenix to move to New York City when I was in my late 20s. Phoenix was set up for suburban family life.

[GuyInLenexa]

In most cities I live in, I always seemed to end up in the burbs, being a gay single father probably was the driving factor.
But in each case, I always seemed to be drawn to the central city on the rare occasion that I had to enjoy myself.
Not just the clubs, but church, and the cultural attractions.
Even for a Log Cabin suburban gay guy, the central city has a special place in my heart. The burbs are OK, but only if you have a partner.

gil