KCRag Forum

Based on casual conversations, the "spend the money on busses because they do more for the working poor" seems to have some appeal to Midtowners. It's a weirdly retrograde attitude from otherwise progressive people, since it assumes that transit is basically for poor people.

As it stands, transit basically is for poor people. Isn't that kind of what we're trying to change here?

mean wrote:As it stands, transit basically is for poor people. Isn't that kind of what we're trying to change here?

Indeed! I think that is a primary goal.

chaglang wrote:Based on casual conversations, the "spend the money on busses because they do more for the working poor" seems to have some appeal to Midtowners. It's a weirdly retrograde attitude from otherwise progressive people, since it assumes that transit is basically for poor people.

but yet they always says yes, in aggregate.

Their main argument is that busses already serve the purpose of the streetcar. Anything more than what we currently have now is an expensive boondoggle that can never be planned correctly by the city due to X (fill in X with anything that the city has messed up in the last 5-10 years). Adding to their main argument, what I see tossed around twitter/facebook/reddit is that KC residents are already taxed enough and that extra taxes are bad. That or businesses don't support it and it will be a burden on them. Or the best one that makes me laugh out loud while simultaneously seethe with rage, is that we will see no benefit to the city with the construction of the streetcar.

Keeping in mind that anything that has been proposed from the opposite side has been nothing short of a joke. I haven't really been convinced by any of their arguements that the streetcar isn't anything but a great deal for KC. Could we do better, maybe. In my mind though, bashing the streetcar but then saying that we should shut off the entirety of the Paseo Boulevard to all regular traffic and replace it with a BRT system exclusively, is a joke. That or throwing more busses at our current system is going to resolve all the issues of said system and stimulate economic growth in the city.

The transparency is there but they wont remove their tinfoil hats and see their endless contradictions. The TDD is controlled mainly by voters but it was snuck by all the voters in KC and everything is a scam. We are voting to tax ourselves but the TDD is purposefully gerrymandering the district so renters can vote on it and then leave. Countless businesses support the streetcar, even though we will never see any economic benefit from it and it's going to hurt businesses.

Sorry for the long post, I've been wanting to rage about this stuff for a long time.

Armorek wrote:Their main argument is that busses already serve the purpose of the streetcar. Anything more than what we currently have now is an expensive boondoggle that can never be planned correctly by the city due to X (fill in X with anything that the city has messed up in the last 5-10 years). Adding to their main argument, what I see tossed around twitter/facebook/reddit is that KC residents are already taxed enough and that extra taxes are bad. That or businesses don't support it and it will be a burden on them. Or the best one that makes me laugh out loud while simultaneously seethe with rage, is that we will see no benefit to the city with the construction of the streetcar.

Keeping in mind that anything that has been proposed from the opposite side has been nothing short of a joke. I haven't really been convinced by any of their arguements that the streetcar isn't anything but a great deal for KC. Could we do better, maybe. However saying that we should shut off the entirety of the Paseo Boulevard to all regular traffic and replace it with a BRT system exclusively, to me is a joke. That or throwing more busses at our current system is going to resolve all the issues of said system and stimulate economic growth in the city.

The transparency is there but they wont remove their tinfoil hats and see their endless contradictions. The TDD is controlled mainly by voters but it was snuck by all the voters in KC and everything is a scam. We are voting to tax ourselves but the TDD is purposefully gerrymandering the district so renters can vote on it and then leave. Countless businesses support the streetcar, even though we will never see any economic benefit from it and it's going to hurt businesses.

Sorry for the long post, I've been wanting to rage about this stuff for a long time.

This is the place for it.

Armorek wrote:Their main argument is that busses already serve the purpose of the streetcar. Anything more than what we currently have now is an expensive boondoggle that can never be planned correctly by the city due to X (fill in X with anything that the city has messed up in the last 5-10 years). Adding to their main argument, what I see tossed around twitter/facebook/reddit is that KC residents are already taxed enough and that extra taxes are bad. That or businesses don't support it and it will be a burden on them. Or the best one that makes me laugh out loud while simultaneously seethe with rage, is that we will see no benefit to the city with the construction of the streetcar.

Keeping in mind that anything that has been proposed from the opposite side has been nothing short of a joke. I haven't really been convinced by any of their arguements that the streetcar isn't anything but a great deal for KC. Could we do better, maybe. In my mind though, bashing the streetcar but then saying that we should shut off the entirety of the Paseo Boulevard to all regular traffic and replace it with a BRT system exclusively, is a joke. That or throwing more busses at our current system is going to resolve all the issues of said system and stimulate economic growth in the city.

The transparency is there but they wont remove their tinfoil hats and see their endless contradictions. The TDD is controlled mainly by voters but it was snuck by all the voters in KC and everything is a scam. We are voting to tax ourselves but the TDD is purposefully gerrymandering the district so renters can vote on it and then leave. Countless businesses support the streetcar, even though we will never see any economic benefit from it and it's going to hurt businesses.

Sorry for the long post, I've been wanting to rage about this stuff for a long time.

We are here for you.............

smh wrote:
This is the place for it.

A better place for it is everywhere else. Like, at parties. At your neighborhood association meeting. At your neighbors homes and on porches. At your church or your social club. At your place of business.

This absolutely does not pass without plenty of people at the polls on August 5th, and in the real world explaining why they are for this between now and then.

I agree and I attempt to inform anyone that I run into or know who asks about the streetcar. I give them low down of both sides. Ultimately letting them know that I'm for it because of the great opportunities it brings to KC. Above was me more or less ranting about the straw man arguments that are routinely encountered on reddit/facebook/twitter. The opposition can't do anything but resort to name calling and making baseless accusations that have been debunked over and over again.

It seems like every time someone asks me about the streetcar I teach them something new about it. Mostly thanks to this forum and twitter. I'd ask for a sign but I don't have a yard

Signs also look good in windows.

I'd suggest someone print up a few sandwich boards and get some friends to parade around the crossroads on First Friday (I volunteer!) promoting the streetcar and handing out flyers, but I'm not sure how many people who attend First Friday actually live in the city.

mean wrote:I'd suggest someone print up a few sandwich boards and get some friends to parade around the crossroads on First Friday (I volunteer!) promoting the streetcar and handing out flyers, but I'm not sure how many people who attend First Friday actually live in the city.

august 1.
let's do it.
kc raggers unite.

mean wrote:I'd suggest someone print up a few sandwich boards and get some friends to parade around the crossroads on First Friday (I volunteer!) promoting the streetcar and handing out flyers, but I'm not sure how many people who attend First Friday actually live in the city.

I'd suggest focusing on door-to-door canvassing and turning out reliable voters in the 4th district plus some refined targetting in the 3rd, but that's just me...

chingon wrote:

mean wrote:I'd suggest someone print up a few sandwich boards and get some friends to parade around the crossroads on First Friday (I volunteer!) promoting the streetcar and handing out flyers, but I'm not sure how many people who attend First Friday actually live in the city.

I'd suggest focusing on door-to-door canvassing and turning out reliable voters in the 4th district plus some refined targetting in the 3rd, but that's just me...

not even door to door

go stand at a major bus stop on Independence Ave.

This is a bummer. Sounds like you guys are not getting a good vibe from the locals outside pro urban development circles like this. Reminds me a lot of the city backed light rail plan that went down in flames. It had plenty of downtown support and most pro transit people felt good about it, but couldn't get the support of the city outside of the loop or crossroads area. I hope people come around and vote yes.

GRID wrote:This is a bummer. Sounds like you guys are not getting a good vibe from the locals outside pro urban development circles like this. Reminds me a lot of the city backed light rail plan that went down in flames. It had plenty of downtown support and most pro transit people felt good about it, but couldn't get the support of the city outside of the loop or crossroads area. I hope people come around and vote yes.

it's a bit confusing but here's my unscientific analysis post of the 2008 election. it was approximately 48-52 in 2008

http://kcrag.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19 ... on#p526006
the summary-

in 2008 the wards were reasonably close to what they are today to make comparing work. if you look carefully at this KCEB map, where council district 3 and 5 meet, on the west side is wards 7, 16, 17 stacked on each other is the tail end of the train then
https://www.kceb.org/useruploads/New_Ma ... tricts.pdf

the precincts right along the train voted 47-50% while those entire wards only voted 40% for. so being along the line made a huge difference in turnout.

this time there's 12+ miles more that's right along the route.

so the places with the most chance to get a change over 2008 is to focus immediately along the three eastside corridors. they have the most to lose and the greatest chance to vote yes given the most benefit. these would be the people to target in person, the highest cost aspect. and then you run more community events further out.

if the city can "turn" 40 precincts on the eastside (there's a ton fronting Prospect), even with marginal no votes versus solid ones, you will have a very different election.

^^^
Yes, but you're assuming the same vote numbers for the areas along the streetcar line. I would imagine that most saw the last vote as a value proposition, "Get the entire city to vote for something that benefits my neighborhood the most". While this vote is people in these neighborhoods carrying the entire load. I think there will be a decrease in support.

I think it was the east side that had the most impact on that vote. Most people back then assumed that the east side residents would support transit and they didn't support the light rail vote.

I was a volunteer and was part of a team that went to east side bus stations to try to get bus riders to vote yes for the light rail. I still remember how much opposition I ran into out there. Most of them would say things like "fix the buses first".

Correct me if I'm wrong but not only does this proposed streetcar better serve the East side, but the bus routes on the east side have been dramatically improved since 2008 (such as Troost Max) sand they will be getting a new Max route with the streetcars.

So east side residents should be for this unless they have no idea about what is being planned and how it would effect them. Hopefully there is strong marketing in place because it seems like most of the east side don't follow the news, they follow word of mouth. It would be good to get a feel of what the word of mouth is right now and if all they are hearing is what the opposition might be saying.

The Eastside vote is probably what will pass or fail this.

beautyfromashes wrote:^^^
Yes, but you're assuming the same vote numbers for the areas along the streetcar line. I would imagine that most saw the last vote as a value proposition, "Get the entire city to vote for something that benefits my neighborhood the most". While this vote is people in these neighborhoods carrying the entire load. I think there will be a decrease in support.

except this vote is also about the entire state helping carry the load

the statewide tax going to the train obviously changed the equation. how did it change how the opposition will handle things? unknown