KCRag Forum

Panera opens May 3.

This place is coming to Brookside, looks like it's a custom T Shirt place, at first i thought it was a deli.
http://www.tshirtdeli.com/

Maybe they can make a bunch of those Less Kansas, More City Shirts

T Shirt Deli has opened, hope it is a success. Wonder if they do logo's, i need someone to make a new Vienna Beef Shirt for me.

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/07/30/37 ... -this.html

We are having our daughter's birthday party there in August. I will be making a "Kansas City: Less Kansas, More City " shirt at that time!

The owner has been very cool.

kucer wrote:We are having our daughter's birthday party there in August. I will be making a "Kansas City: Less Kansas, More City " shirt at that time!

The owner has been very cool.

That's the first thing I wanted to do (the shirt, not the birthday party) as soon as I read about this store. Do let us know how it turns out.

Brookside Berbiglia to become a Jimmy John's and possibly something else:

Restaurateur Joe Zwillenberg buys Brookside Berbiglia building

In a Midtown KC Post Article about the opening of his new apartment building at 37th and Gillham, John Hoffman says he is "working on a similar apartment complex at 63rd and Holmes streets."

It has always confused me as to why 63rd St. is so moribund east of Main. I think there is a lot of untapped potential in that stretch and I imagine this development will do well due to the dearth of apartments in the Brookside area.

KCtoBrooklyn wrote: It has always confused me as to why 63rd St. is so moribund east of Main. I think there is a lot of untapped potential in that stretch and I imagine this development will do well due to the dearth of apartments in the Brookside area.
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two words: Citadel Plaza

flyingember wrote:

KCtoBrooklyn wrote: It has always confused me as to why 63rd St. is so moribund east of Main. I think there is a lot of untapped potential in that stretch and I imagine this development will do well due to the dearth of apartments in the Brookside area.
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two words: Citadel Plaza

Prospect is a whole different animal from the area between Main St and Troost. I don't see the connection.

KCtoBrooklyn wrote:

flyingember wrote:

KCtoBrooklyn wrote: It has always confused me as to why 63rd St. is so moribund east of Main. I think there is a lot of untapped potential in that stretch and I imagine this development will do well due to the dearth of apartments in the Brookside area.
[/img]

two words: Citadel Plaza

Prospect is a whole different animal from the area between Main St and Troost. I don't see the connection.

Do you really think an out of town developer doesn't see a failure on Prospect and not have it cloud their opinion of Troost? There's single projects in JoCo that span half a mile length.

The One mile between those two is nothing when you figure that retail looks 5-10 miles away to come up with their risk model.

flyingember wrote:Do you really think an out of town developer doesn't see a failure on Prospect and not have it cloud their opinion of Troost? There's single projects in JoCo that span half a mile length.

By that logic, the Whole Foods at 51st and Oak shouldn't happen either. It's the same distance off Prospect or Troost as 63rd and Oak. Anyway, the point was about the section east of Main, not necessarily all the way over to Troost. The Landing has its own set of problems.

There's really no reason why apartments couldn't be built east of Oak. The scale is different than SFH BKS and there are multifamly houses on the blocks between 63rd and Meyer. I do wonder if the neighborhoods would fight apartments going in because of perceived parking issues.

there's absolutely reasons apartments could be built but wouldn't. it's why I said you have to look at the whole economic environment more than half a mile away because project success builds off the greater neighborhood.

it could be as simple as market might not accept leasing rates high enough to get a return. the land costs a certain amount, you have to do tear outs and then new construction. but if you had a major new retail component you could see rates increase because of easy access to new jobs increases demand. Landlords will see increased demand on one side of Troost and raise their rates on the other. So suddenly a project becomes economically viable. it might take that kind of major project before rates can get high enough for developers to build, it happened downtown so it can happen here

those new jobs don't have to be right next door for them to affect the real estate market of an area. Like on a larger scale a major new employer downtown affects which suburb people move to.

That Whole Foods is looking at the new residential in places like 51st and Main, 46th and Washington as their customer base. compare that second address and the distance to the Westport grocery store, it's almost exactly halfway between it and the new Whole Foods. Prospect to Troost is the same distance as Whole Foods is to 58th, which is a little over the halfway point to the grocery store in Brookside. and then there's the store at 47th and Cleaver and. the new whole foods spot is roughly centered between three existing stores when accounting for spots they could build on while being in a demographics area that fits their chain. so you can see how they positioned themselves geographically

So if the Citadel had been successful, apartments would be realistic at 63rd and Oak? That seems like it overstates the impact of that project by several orders of magnitude.

chaglang wrote:So if the Citadel had been successful, apartments would be realistic at 63rd and Oak? That seems like it overstates the impact of that project by several orders of magnitude.

it's absolutely possible, yes. nothing happens in a vacuum.

Power and Light is credited with helping revitalize all of downtown. it didn't do it by itself but it certainly helped contribute to downtown doing so well.

So a major successful retail project would absolutely help with the economic environment on 63rd St and north and south on Prospect.

residential demand tends to follow jobs when there's no other reason to live somewhere

(Re: P&L) Sure, but it's entirely debatable whether that credit is deserved.

chaglang wrote:Sure, but it's entirely debatable whether that credit is deserved.

exactly.

that you admit there can be a debate over what led to downtown being a successful area for new apartments shows how false the statement

There's really no reason why apartments couldn't be built east of Oak.

is for 63rd

it's equally possible that apartments couldn't be success without Citadel Plaza jobs as to say that Citadel Plaza not being built would have no affect. there's hundreds of other similar things that can be said. maybe it will take housing rates increasing to the west so that more people can't afford a house. maybe people don't want to live near Troost. Maybe developers are waiting on a bigger water main. maybe the land owners have no money because they're building downtown

you simply don't know what leads to more apartments for any given area. the math of real estate development is too complex.

that's why I say you can't just look at the handful of blocks, you have to see what's happening further away.

chaglang wrote:I do wonder if the neighborhoods would fight apartments going in because of perceived parking issues.

I would be surprised if there wasn't some push-back. That seems to be par for the course for any development that adds density in KC - even in areas more urban than Brookside. Hopefully the opposition won't be strong enough to prevent development.

John Hoffman says he is "working on a similar apartment complex at 63rd and Holmes streets."

Been following the discussion. Interesting. I don't think the Citadel Plaza has that much of an effect on 63rd east of Main. That's said because of the closeness of Brookside to the area in discussion. Probably the biggest drawback to the redevelopment of 63rd east of Main would be the ownership and size of various parcels.

aknowledgeableperson wrote:

John Hoffman says he is "working on a similar apartment complex at 63rd and Holmes streets."

Been following the discussion. Interesting. I don't think the Citadel Plaza has that much of an effect on 63rd east of Main. That's said because of the closeness of Brookside to the area in discussion. Probably the biggest drawback to the redevelopment of 63rd east of Main would be the ownership and size of various parcels.

it absolutely can have an effect

I would think a shopping center on Troost stays a shopping center but seven square blocks next to existing residential, that would make fine residential again if a developer wanted to do it without incentives. if a dense apartment complex was developed on the northern half do you think that the city would say no at this point?

and that changes the residential market for the whole area. someone who wants to live near oak might not move to there, but it will affect rental rates in a spillover manner.

flyingember wrote:

chaglang wrote:Sure, but it's entirely debatable whether that credit is deserved.

exactly.

that you admit there can be a debate over what led to downtown being a successful area for new apartments shows how false the statement

There's really no reason why apartments couldn't be built east of Oak.

is for 63rd

it's equally possible that apartments couldn't be success without Citadel Plaza jobs as to say that Citadel Plaza not being built would have no affect. there's hundreds of other similar things that can be said. maybe it will take housing rates increasing to the west so that more people can't afford a house. maybe people don't want to live near Troost. Maybe developers are waiting on a bigger water main. maybe the land owners have no money because they're building downtown

you simply don't know what leads to more apartments for any given area. the math of real estate development is too complex.

that's why I say you can't just look at the handful of blocks, you have to see what's happening further away.

If I follow correctly, there are a number of factors, between zero and infinity, hindering development on 63rd, east of Main, and Citadel Plaza is either the only factor, one of many factors or not a factor at all. It's like quantum mechanics applied to development.