total auto industry employment in KC?

[LenexatoKCMO]

Absolute nonsense.

You just don't want blue collar workers to make a decent wage, do you?

There is a big difference between a "decent wage" and making the same money as doctors, lawyers, and accountants that went to school for the better part of a decade. 

[NDTeve]

$73 per/hour is more than a decent wage.

[KCFutbol]

$73 per/hour is more than a decent wage.

That's their base wage?

Or does that include all benefits, vacation, health insurance, retirement, etc.?

[beautyfromashes]

That's their base wage?

Or does that include all benefits, vacation, health insurance, retirement, etc.?

$25 of that would be benefits including health care and pension but that is still almost $50/hour.  Impossible to compete with that weight around your neck.  If the automakers hadn't had the increased costs for the last several decades they could have produced better, cheaper, more fuel efficient and safer vehicles. 

[beautyfromashes]

Right.  Poor management decisions have nothing to do with it.  No matter what goes wrong, it is the fault of the worker, never management.

Management did have a fault in it.  What they should have done is gone bankrupt if they had to to get out from underneath these terrible wage and dues consessions and opened plants overseas with cheaper labor. 

[bbqboy]

Management did have a fault in it.  What they should have done is gone bankrupt if they had to to get out from underneath these terrible wage and dues consessions and opened plants overseas with cheaper labor. 

That IS what's been happening for the last 30 years. What are you going to do for the 8000 folks (not counting the HD facility) that would be unemployed?
  Where are they to go for health care and who will pay for it?

[beautyfromashes]

Ask any person directly out of college and getting their first job if they anticipate being with the same company the rest of their lives.  The answer will always be no.  This wasn't always the case.  Throughout our lifetime we have to make changes in careers.  This might include us getting more education, scaling back a lifestyle or maybe even starting your own business.  Listen, Americans are the best workers in the world.  It is just that, in this case, they are not worth an addtional $50/hour over a foreign worker.  In some industries they would be.  So if it takes 100 hours to produce a car in America then it is going to cost an additional $5000 for the car.  That's an impossible sell.

[LenexatoKCMO]

I am fine with workers having the right to organize and bargain collectively - its a free world.  But when workers start demanding compensation and terms that are way above their skill level, employers should also have the right to walk away and hire other workers.  This is where the system has gotten broken in this country - our regs don't give employers much option to hire scabs.  As a result we wind up with guys with a GED and the ability to tighten lug bolts making more money than an oncologist. 

[mean]

I am fine with workers having the right to organize and bargain collectively - its a free world.  But when workers start demanding compensation and terms that are way above their skill level, employers should also have the right to walk away and hire other workers.  This is where the system has gotten broken in this country - our regs don't give employers much option to hire scabs.  As a result we wind up with guys with a GED and the ability to tighten lug bolts making more money than an oncologist. 

On point!

Unions aren't the problem. Corruption is the problem.

[KCFutbol]

I am fine with workers having the right to organize and bargain collectively - its a free world.  But when workers start demanding compensation and terms that are way above their skill level, employers should also have the right to walk away and hire other workers.  This is where the system has gotten broken in this country - our regs don't give employers much option to hire scabs.  As a result we wind up with guys with a GED and the ability to tighten lug bolts making more money than an oncologist. 

June 2003 Salary Survey 
http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary ... laries.htm

                           
Radiation Oncology

Years 1 to 2 $241,000
Years 3+    $385,000 
Maximum    $787,000

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layo ... ctitioners

Physician - Hematology/Oncology -  U.S. National Averages

            Benefit  Median Amount  % of Total
Base Salary   $260,602           72.0%
Bonuses             $20,538             5.7%
Social Security     $10,401             2.9%
401k / 403b     $14,260             3.9%
Disability               $4,498             1.2%
Healthcare       $5,328             1.5%
Pension               $9,660             2.7%
Time Off             $36,764           10.2%
Total             $362,051           100%

[beautyfromashes]

Unions aren't the problem. Corruption is the problem.

Give me an example of a higher unionized industry and tell me how healthy that industry is. I can only think of one industry where it works, and that is in the short term.

[mean]

I'm just saying the problem isn't the unions themselves. Unions are great when they are protecting workers from legitimate abuses and ensuring high quality work. The problem is that some of them are engaged in doing things like protecting ridiculously inflated wages for unskilled button-pushers, and ensuring that people who engage in behavior that would have them fired from anywhere else (repeatedly showing up drunk, for example) retain employment.

I don't think the solution to the obvious corruption is to bust all unions and be done with them, but who knows.

[beautyfromashes]

The thing is that our legal system should take care of protecting workers.  While in the past there wasn't any protection from sweatshop conditions or sexual harrassment, we now have laws to protect workers.  No need for unions.

[NDTeve]

I'm just saying the problem isn't the unions themselves. Unions are great when they are protecting workers from legitimate abuses and ensuring high quality work. The problem is that some of them are engaged in doing things like protecting ridiculously inflated wages for unskilled button-pushers, and ensuring that people who engage in behavior that would have them fired from anywhere else (repeatedly showing up drunk, for example) retain employment.

I don't think the solution to the obvious corruption is to bust all unions and be done with them, but who knows.

So the concept of unions are well intended...but in practice...they often become corrupt.

[chrizow]

So the concept of unions are well intended...but in practice...they often become corrupt.

sometimes, yes.  just like business in general, government, etc.  with any organization that allocates resources, power, etc., corruption is there.  it's not like the big bad unions are tainting the poor, altruistic corporations!

[LenexatoKCMO]

I'm just saying the problem isn't the unions themselves. Unions are great when they are protecting workers from legitimate abuses and ensuring high quality work. The problem is that some of them are engaged in doing things like protecting ridiculously inflated wages for unskilled button-pushers, and ensuring that people who engage in behavior that would have them fired from anywhere else (repeatedly showing up drunk, for example) retain employment.

I don't think the solution to the obvious corruption is to bust all unions and be done with them, but who knows.

Agreed - where it gets out of balance is the fact that american labor law essentially forces the employer to bargain with the Union, which gives the union little reason to operate on fairness.  If the union's demands are unreasonable and out of line with labor market conditions, the employer needs to have the ability to walk away and move forward with other employees.  It is extremely difficult for them to do so as it is now.  

[mean]

If the union's demands are unreasonable and out of line with labor market conditions, the employer needs to have the ability to walk away and move forward with other employees.  It is extremely difficult for them to do so as it is now.  

Any anti-union folks not think this is a reasonable compromise?

[kcmetro]

Without unions, many people in this country would be living without health care or any prospect of retirement.

[NDTeve]

Any anti-union folks not think this is a reasonable compromise?

All for this proposal. Good luck when the picketing starts.

[LenexatoKCMO]

All for this proposal. Good luck when the picketing starts.

A fair point when it comes to the auto industry - for decades when the big threes products weren't anywhere near the quality of the competition they made their #1 selling point about nationalisim and supporting the american worker - Thus if they ever did decide to actually stand up to the UAW, they would risk offending a large portion of their existing customers who habitually buy for this reason.  But hey, they made that bed themselves.  They could have avoided that problem by actually making a quality product instead of selling the flag/workers.