out in westport

[StL_Dan]

As well-intentioned as that sentiment is, that whole "hate the sex not the homesexual" idea is a cop out.

It's not well intended....it is fact. And I live it.

It still perpetuates the idea that the person is doing something wrong.

I don't have a problem with perpetuating Biblical truth. I DO have a problem with a guy like Phelps disguising hate for the individual sinner as a Christianit principle. On this count, the Bible clearly states his error.

[StL_Dan]

Everything I was ever told, growing up, about God was that God doesn't hate anything. The very concept of hate is exactly contrary to God's nature. All that God does is love, and leave the hate to people who refuse to understand things. Loving, hating, condemning, judging- these are all functions of the free will that is given to each person, and all(except love) are carried out solely by humans, and not by God.

Regardless of any sin(which God does not hate, being solely a loving being), God loves everyone, unconditionally. That's what Jesus was trying to tell people, and none of the following quoted statements:

"God hates you if you do X."
"You have sinned, so you are wretched. Therefore God is sickened by you, and wants nothing to do with you."
"Make friends with me, and I'll sneak you past God, because he hates you anyway."
"Salvation is achieved through faith alone(sola fidei) in me, because you have no hope in swaying God, who hates you."

I see the hate culture of many of the so-called Christian religions as nothing more than a base attempt by people to control the lives of other people. People like power, and often, they evilly use what they sell as "Gospel" to impose their dominion over other people. It's simply despicable.

God does hate sin....and lukewarmness. If you are not for him, you are against him.

If God didn't hate sin, he would readily accept it's presence into Heaven. However, we know this isn't possible, which is why Hell was created and is very much a reality. Sin simply cannot and will not coexist in the presence of a Holy God.

Those who choose their own selfish agenda over God's desire for their life will, unfortunately, be left out of God's presence for eternity. And that is exactly what Hell really is....a place devoid of God's love and grace. Not a place of direct hatred from God...rather a place devoid of his love. What a frightening thought.

[StL_Dan]

Everything I was ever told, growing up, about God was that God doesn't hate anything.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk in saying this, so please don't take it that way: rely less on what "you were told" growing up, and go straight to the source for information....the Bible.

If you were an architect building a new downtown arena here in KC, would you rely on what area business owners and residents had to say about where they thought utilities and other infrastructure lied under the ground and just start digging? Or would you go to the source, and get the correct documents on file with the city planner's office (or wherever) and actually find out for yourself exactly what the situation is?

Listening to others talk about who God is and what he is about and actually finding out for yourself can be two totally different things. The only way to be sure is to go the unchangeable source itsself and discover for yoursself who God really is.

Heck, don't even listen to what I say about God. I could be a frootloop for all you know. But what you WON'T know is God unless you actually read his own Words and have a personal relationship with him.

[QueSi2Opie]

Heck, don't even listen to what I say about God. I could be a frootloop for all you know. But what you WON'T know is God unless you actually read his own Words and have a personal relationship with him.

Dan, you're a great guy and since I'm not Christian, I think you're a fruitloop. I'm sure people who practice Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judahism and Sikhism think the same about all Christians. You, just like them, all believe that the Supreme Being/Almighty Deity spoke to their prophets and the words of Jahovah, Allah, Krishna, etc. were written in their religious texts. Once again you assume everyone believes in Christianity and that the Holy Bible is a flat out fact!

[StL_Dan]

Heck, don't even listen to what I say about God. I could be a frootloop for all you know. But what you WON'T know is God unless you actually read his own Words and have a personal relationship with him.

Dan, you're a great guy and since I'm not Christian, I think you're a fruitloop. I'm sure people who practice Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judahism and Sikhism think the same about all Christians. You, just like them, all believe that the Supreme Being/Almighty Deity spoke to their prophets and the words of Jahovah, Allah, Krishna, etc. were written in their religious texts. Once again you assume everyone believes in Christianity and that the Holy Bible is a flat out fact!

Actually, I KNOW that only an extremely small percentage of the world's population believes that Christ is the way, the truth and the life and is alive sitting at the right hand of the Father. A much much much greater pctg believes in dead prophets, wooden and bronze sculptures n stuff that are deader than doornails.

Devoted Christians are definitely in the minority. It may not seem like it to the average non believing joe primarily because when it comes right down to it, almost everyone and their mom says they are "religious"...whatever that means.

[QueSi2Opie]

Actually, I KNOW that only an extremely small percentage of the world's population believes that Christ is the way, the truth and the life and is alive sitting at the right hand of the Father. A much much much greater pctg believes in dead prophets, wooden and bronze sculptures n stuff that are deader than doornails.

You don't even realize that you jus' insulted some of the world's largest religions, do you? God is dead...ALL PRAISE ALLAH!!!

The man named Christ died on the cross and some lunatic follower stole his body. Christ might be sittin' with David Koresh and Joseph Smith in some sort of after-life.

I guess you can put Catholics in with the people that worship wooden and bronze sculptures.

[StL_Dan]

Actually, I KNOW that only an extremely small percentage of the world's population believes that Christ is the way, the truth and the life and is alive sitting at the right hand of the Father. A much much much greater pctg believes in dead prophets, wooden and bronze sculptures n stuff that are deader than doornails.

You don't even realize that you jus' insulted some of the world's largest religions, do you? God is dead...ALL PRAISE ALLAH!!!

The man named Christ died on the cross and some lunatic follower stole his body. Christ might be sittin' with David Koresh and Joseph Smith in some sort of after-life.

I guess you can put Catholics in with the people that worship wooden and bronze sculptures.

Contrare.....Christ arose from the dead on the third day, commonly known as Easter, and showed himself to Thomas, Mary and many others before ascending to heaven. Christ is alive.

I assure you that Christ isn't sitting with Joe Smith in some kind of after life. How do I know this? Joe Smith doesn't teach that Christ was anything other than a prophet....that he was only carnal, not God's Son incarnate.

RE: Catholics worshiping idols. I'm not sure that they do cuz I've never really seen anyone bow to an idol in a Catholic place of worship. I do hear, though, that they worship images of Mary and other saints. Is this true?
I'm sorry if I offended other religions. I wasn't aware their gods were still alive and intercessing for them until their souls parted their bodies.

[chrizow]

i really hate to weigh in on this, since i know it's futile, but...

i appreciate christianity and have many christians in my family and among my friends....

but really, how can anyone say that jesus is a different kind of prophet than any other prophet? every scripture says its prophet is alive and the rest are dead. if we were to believe what those books said simply because the book said it (circular, huh?), then all the scriptures would be true.

dan, you seem super nice and very earnest and you are definitely more open to discussion than many christians i have met, but really, is there any reason i should believe jesus is not another radical who was murdered by the Man, based on a source other than the "Word of God?" because, for those that aren't christians, the Bible is about as truthful as a comic book. sorry to put it in those terms, but....

basically, i am not trying to argue. i seriously want to know some sort of non-biblical basis for thinking these things about "god" and jesus.

[StL_Dan]

i really hate to weigh in on this, since i know it's futile, but...

i appreciate christianity and have many christians in my family and among my friends....

but really, how can anyone say that jesus is a different kind of prophet than any other prophet? every scripture says its prophet is alive and the rest are dead. if we were to believe what those books said simply because the book said it (circular, huh?), then all the scriptures would be true.

dan, you seem super nice and very earnest and you are definitely more open to discussion than many christians i have met, but really, is there any reason i should believe jesus is not another radical who was murdered by the Man, based on a source other than the "Word of God?" because, for those that aren't christians, the Bible is about as truthful as a comic book. sorry to put it in those terms, but....

basically, i am not trying to argue. i seriously want to know some sort of non-biblical basis for thinking these things about "god" and jesus.

thanks....i AM a pretty nice guy ....and ez to get along with if you were to know me personally....

the source of a lot of this dialogue is an attempt to understand the non-believer's psyche and rationale for their decision not to believe. plus, i enjoy a good conversation which most of you provide on this forum.

i can handle opposite viewpoints extremely well. the reason i keep responding is because i have a well full of thoughts, ideas and beliefs on the topic and you guys are perfect listeners that provide excellent feedback.

what christianity all boils down to is this: faith. either you have it or you don't. there is research and historical fact that validates most of the bible and it's contents, and that is all wonderful and great. a good read is a book called "the case for christ". it was written by a skeptic. perfect for the fence sitter or one that cannot wrap his/her mind around such a selfless thing as being a follower of christ.

[chrizow]

"the case for christ" was a good read. i just hope mr. strobel doesn't go into court with holes that big in his "case"......hehehe......

[bahua]

Well, I guess I didn't say it, but I was raised Christian, so the things that I was told, growing up were derived from the Bible.

I maintain that God does not, and cannot hate. Hate is a fabrication of mankind. Furthermore, God doesn't choose who goes to heaven, the people who go do, by leading lives of love. They choose not to join God in heaven by deciding not to love as God does. It's called free will.

And yeah, there are lots of other religions in the world, and many things that the established Christian religions(particularly in America) seek to use their own hate culture to eliminate them from any chance of ever gaining heaven. Damned for being a Jew/Muslim/Hindu/Taoist? Give me a break!

[kcmajik]

not saying it is hate: but God is a jealous God, i mean what's the first of the 10 big ones for crying out loud???

[tat2kc]

Speaking for all catholics, , no we don't worship Mary or the Saints. We do pray to them and ask for them to intercede on our behalf. Catholics also believe that all religions, Christian and non-christian, have some validity and follow the same "path" as Catholics. regardless of whether your'e catholic or christian or whatever, as long as you do good, follow whatever your belief system is, you are going to heaven. Catholics do not tell people who follow other faiths that they are damned. Of course good muslims, and jews and pagans are going to heaven. Its petty, small minded humans who f**k things up!

Even the pope, occasionally misguided as he can be, believes that even me, a big ass homo, gets to heaven! Just live the best life you can, leave the world a better place than it was when you got here, and let God sort it out. He is knda in charge of the after-life, don't ya know!

Poor old Fred Phelps is sure in for a surprise when he gets where ever he's going!

[QueSi2Opie]

Contrare.....Christ arose from the dead on the third day, commonly known as Easter, and showed himself to Thomas, Mary and many others before ascending to heaven. Christ is alive.9

Every religion has followers that have had personal experiences with their Gods and prophets, even in the present. Christ arose from the dead... Fact or Fiction? I think fairy tale. well... Actually, I don't dismiss anything because I believe anything is possible.

RE: Catholics worshiping idols. I'm not sure that they do cuz I've never really seen anyone bow to an idol in a Catholic place of worship. I do hear, though, that they worship images of Mary and other saints. Is this true?

Catholics appear as if they are praying to a wooden Jesus on a Crucifix, an image of Christ on the wall, a statue of Virgin Mary, etc. However, Catholics, like in most other religions, do not actually pray to the statue or to the image, but to the persons/saints/Gods of whom they remind us. They are not worshiping statues! Rather, they are using them to remind them of their beloved God in the spiritual realm, even as you might look at a photo of a relative when he or she is far away.

I'm sorry if I offended other religions. I wasn't aware their gods were still alive and intercessing for them until their souls parted their bodies.

But are you really sorry? Here's the problem with Christianity. They are completely going about converting souls the wrong way. If I were a Christian, I'd accept other religions as a possibilty when talkin' to a Hindu or a Muslim for instance. In return, I'd expect them to accept my religion as a possibility. However, if you come in and state your religion as a fact and their religion as false, you're only goin' to piss people off. In return, they will say that your religion is false and that their religion is fact. Maybe if you opened your mind a little, they'd open theirs, and quite possibily they could eventually decide to accept Christ as their savior before they die. Before I die, I'll ask all of them for forgiveness. I have a list already printed

[QueSi2Opie]

Contrare.....Christ arose from the dead on the third day, commonly known as Easter, and showed himself to Thomas, Mary and many others before ascending to heaven. Christ is alive.9

Every religion has followers that have had personal experiences with their Gods and prophets, even in the present. Christ arose from the dead... Fact or Fiction? I think fairy tale. well... Actually, I don't dismiss anything because I believe anything is possible.

RE: Catholics worshiping idols. I'm not sure that they do cuz I've never really seen anyone bow to an idol in a Catholic place of worship. I do hear, though, that they worship images of Mary and other saints. Is this true?

Catholics appear as if they are praying to a wooden Jesus on a Crucifix, an image of Christ on the wall, a statue of Virgin Mary, etc. However, Catholics, like in most other religions, do not actually pray to the statue or to the image, but to the persons/saints/Gods of whom they remind us. They are not worshiping statues! Rather, they are using them to remind them of their beloved God in the spiritual realm, even as you might look at a photo of a relative when he or she is far away.

I'm sorry if I offended other religions. I wasn't aware their gods were still alive and intercessing for them until their souls parted their bodies.

But are you really sorry? Here's the problem with Christianity. They are completely going about converting souls the wrong way. If I were a Christian, I'd accept other religions as a possibilty when talkin' to a Hindu or a Muslim for instance. In return, I'd expect them to accept my religion as a possibility. However, if you come in and state your religion as a fact and their religion as false, you're only goin' to piss people off. In return, they will say that your religion is false and that their religion is fact. Maybe if you opened your mind a little, they'd open theirs, and quite possibily they could eventually decide to accept Christ as their savior before they die. Before I die, I'll ask all of them for forgiveness. I have a list already printed

[QueSi2Opie]

No wonder people want to follow prophets to their graves!

[StL_Dan]

If I were a Christian, I'd accept other religions as a possibilty when talkin' to a Hindu or a Muslim for instance.

God says to have no other gods or idols before him. Accepting another false god or idol is the same as marginalizing or deemphasizing the deity of Christ.

Bad move.

Why pretend to accept Hinduism or Islam when we already know who the living God is?

That's like accepting Gomer Pyle as Gov of CA even though we know Schwarzenegger holds the office. Just cuz we want to espouse Gomer as mayor doesn't lessen the reality that Arnold is the man.

We can be nice to the loonies that think Gomer is Gov, but walk away from our converastions with them secure in what we know to be true.

[chrizow]

but do you KNOW it to be true, or do you believe (i.e. have faith) that it is true?

you can't possibly think that, objectively, jesus is alive but mohammed and co. are not. if you want to base your BELIEF on the bible's telling you so, then ok, but do you really know?

with the CA gov example, you can point at Ahhnold and say "yep! there he is! he is clearly Governor and Gomer Pyle, a fictional character, is not!"

with jesus vs. muhammed (or whomever), one cannot make the same assertion without resorting to a questionable (or at least highly subjective) document. a muslim will point to his book and say the same thing, and you wouldn't believe it.

i know you said before that it all comes down to "faith," but how can "faith," which implies definitionally that the object of faith has not yet manifested itself in an objectively verifiable way, be KNOWLEDGE?

if you "know" anything, you know your BELIEF, which is fine, but perhaps you can see why nonbelievers have a problem?

if god and jesus (and whatever) comes back to earth today and swoops all the saved ones into heaven, then i'll buy it, but until then....

[StL_Dan]

Excellent thoughts, chizrow.

A couple of replies.....

First, regarding what I "know". It would take me a little time to put together all of the research that historically validates the Bible and it's contents, but I could do it. However, the basis for what I "know" is not found in what can be validated historically. Rather, it is validated by my own undeniable experience with God....what I've witnessed him do in my and other's lives.

Most people have a hard time understanding God and the concept of Christianity because they are too busy trying to find something or someone that fits their own agenda and allows them to live the way they want to live. Following Christ is a completely different matter altogether. Dying to your carnality and being born again in the likeness of Christ is a total renewing of the mind and heart. Tranformation is the word the Bible uses. So, most cannot grasp the beauty of what God has for us because most are too busy trying to figure out what they want for themselves to hear what God has to say.

RE: CA Gov take.....I see your point....but I wasn't making a literal comparison between a fictional and real character....it was the principle of the argument...not the legitimacy of the characters involved. But I do see your point just the same...and it's a good point.

RE: Non-believers. I can definitely see where the human eye and rational mind would have a problem with the gift of salvation and living for God instead of their own desires. The Bible tells us few will enter the kingdom....I guess that is why. Most folks dwell on the temporal and not the eternal nature of their spiritual being.

RE: Second coming......I fear it may be too late to ante up with God at that very moment....it will happen in the blink of an eye. It would be equivalent in some respects to waiting, like Que suggested more or less, to saying a quick, all encompassing prayer moments before a semi truck smashes into your vehicle on I-35. It'll happen too fast for quick "I'm sorrys".

The Bible encourages us to have, figuratively, our oil lamps full while waiting for the bride groom to come lest we miss him altogether.

[QueSi2Opie]

Rather, it is validated by my own undeniable experience with God....what I've witnessed him do in my and other's lives.

Most people have a hard time understanding God and the concept of Christianity because they are too busy trying to find something or someone that fits their own agenda and allows them to live the way they want to live.

Okay, I'm not gonna attempt to go back and discuss the ridiculous statement about how your God is the truth and all other Gods are false. There's probably only one God, and he accepts all religions, but frowns upon hypocrites.

People of every religion CLAIM to have had a personal undeniable experience with their God!

Something that fits their own agenda?!?!? I'm not talkin' about Satanists here! I'm talkin' about people who have never touched alcohol, caffeine, tobacco, etc. People who spend their lives in holy cities and never marry or have sex. People who sacrifice their lives literally for their beliefs! Most Christians could only dream of being as devoted to Christianity as many Muslims, Hindus, Mormons and Buddhists are to their religions. All I see here is Christian arrogance and hypocrisy.

I think we can learn a lot from different types of religion because they all mix historical facts with fairy tales, plus they are important in keeping weak people in line. Unless of course they are extremists that twist the Bible or Koran. The most powerful thing in religion is the human mind. If we truely believe, we begin to see things and feel things that only our mind is creating...no one else!