Troost developments

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
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aknowledgeableperson
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Re: Troost developments

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

My problem with the Family Dollar is that no matter how nice they make it, it's going to concentrate low end retail in that location for the next 30+ years.
It is very hard to predict that far into the future. It is hard to properly develop property in that do you do something for the here and now or wait for something that may or may not come ad if it comes will it be in 5 years, 10 years, or more.

I can remember a time 30 some odd years ago an apartment complex was proposed on a vacant parcel of land between a shopping center and a housing development. Many in the neighborhood were against it while others were for it. To make a long story short it wasn't built and the land is still vacant.
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chaglang
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Re: Troost developments

Post by chaglang »

You missed my point. I'm happy with nothing being built there for the next 30 years rather than another low-end retailer. There is zero upside for the neighborhood if a Family Dollar builds there.
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Re: Troost developments

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

When the store is opened I would bet a large majority of the customers of the store would say there is way more than a zero upside to the store.
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Re: Troost developments

Post by flyingember »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:When the store is opened I would bet a large majority of the customers of the store would say there is way more than a zero upside to the store.
this

imagine you have to drive for 10 minutes further to the next nearest store.
imagine one can now walk there versus the cost of driving or the bus

and I believe the bus would cost more than driving to the next nearest similar store.

that is an upside for the neighborhood.
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Re: Troost developments

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

it's going to concentrate low end retail in that location for the next 30+ years
Reading another article gave some insight to retail. What is going to determine the future of retail in the area is not the presence of a low end retailer but the demographics of the area. Buildings housing those so-called low end retailers can be easily remodeled or replaced. So if the demographics of the area changes enough to attract a higher type of retail it could easily replace the lower end stuff.
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Re: Troost developments

Post by flyingember »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:
it's going to concentrate low end retail in that location for the next 30+ years
Reading another article gave some insight to retail. What is going to determine the future of retail in the area is not the presence of a low end retailer but the demographics of the area. Buildings housing those so-called low end retailers can be easily remodeled or replaced. So if the demographics of the area changes enough to attract a higher type of retail it could easily replace the lower end stuff.
this has value.

the city would be smart to get buildings in place that can either fit the neighborhood long-term or be ones that are easily torn down

A Family Dollar with variances is by no means a wonderful building for the nieghborhood, but it will be a building no one cares about tearing down in 10-20 years and the service it provides today is beneficial to the community over having nothing instead.

What the Troost corridor needs isn't endless nitpicking that results in nothing but improvements and population grown that drives interest in the long-term urban development of the corridor. Basically, we have to start somewhere.
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Re: Troost developments

Post by loftguy »

My impression of the fight to stop a dollar store from opening on Troost is that the opposition is based on elitist fear and bigotry. People of means who equate a dollar store with a plasma center or a check-cashing store. Fear of the poor and unwashed.

Tell me what I'm missing, if I am.
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Re: Troost developments

Post by flyingember »

loftguy wrote:My impression of the fight to stop a dollar store from opening on Troost is that the opposition is based on elitist fear and bigotry. People of means who equate a dollar store with a plasma center or a check-cashing store. Fear of the poor and unwashed.

Tell me what I'm missing, if I am.
I bet you have part of it

I bet there's also a group that wants their way or nothing on the building design. they're ok with the company as long as it meets their view of the neighborhood.
it's a bit more of an extreme example, but it's like Apple doing this and not a glass front in this London historic district
http://www.apple.com/uk/retail/coventgarden/

I bet the former is easily ignored and already is. the latter can tie it up in planning approval. notice how they apparently came back with no changes, expecting the opposition to go away, as if otherwise approval was a done deal

I personally would see the variance opponents as having a point if we were talking about an apartment complex that would be there for 80 years or something similar. aim for strict rule following. but a family dollar? it's a four concrete wall building you can take down with a big enough truck running into it.

and as for the elitist view. this is the same thing. if the neighborhood really grows into what they want, family dollar won't fit in and their business will drop. then something else will move in.

that family dollar wants to move in there means that they're a minority of the population.

this tells us one more thing. they're not worried about massive crime. they could just as easily move in 8 blocks over on Main for security reasons if that was the case
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FangKC
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Re: Troost developments

Post by FangKC »

There are other issues than the fact one can put up a building that can easily be torn down in 10-20 years.

For example, the wasteful precedent that idea creates. Keep in mind that the taxpayer often gets hit with the cost of demolishing buildings later on, or the City is forced into giving incentives to developers for the cost of preparing an urban site, or cleaning up the mess of a blighted building.

Buildings require energy to be constructed--mostly from fossil fuels. Building construction also produces carbon dioxide, which remains in our atmosphere for years/decades/centuries, as well as other pollutants. Surface parking lots also require energy from fossil fuels--asphalt. Creating unused parking space is just a waste, and also contributes to the heat effect, too much water runoff, and flooding problems which requires public money to resolve later.

One of the arguments used in fighting against old buildings being demolished is the loss of the embedded energy it took to create them, as well as the fact that a good portion of landfill is made up of demolished building materials--many materials that are often laced with pollutants.

The goal should be that most buildings we construct should be designed to last for many, many years and able to serve various purposes over time.

I have less problem with a dollar store being the business on Troost. However, the City also needs to balance other things based on how retail has gone in past history.

I cite the many examples around the Metro of retail strips that fell into blight fairly quickly, or empty out in a few years.

City leaders need to consider past history when they make decisions. What can we learn from Bannister Mall, Metro North Mall, Independence Avenue, Main Street, other sections of Troost, North Oak Trafficway, Linwood, 31st Street, Highway 40 from Van Brunt to Sterling Avenue?

For example, instead of building a simple block building with a Family Dollar sign fixed to it, with all sorts of zoning variances, look at problems with zoning in general.

Questions like:

Is there too much parking surface for the store--twice as much as it will ever need. This creates no value in the long run. It only displaces other uses for the space. Stores placed too far apart mean it's difficult to walk between them, and requires more driving.

Do stores set-back from the street contribute to density problems, and not help resolve them?

Are there too many similar businesses like this nearby? For example, there are two Family Dollar Stores near Independence and White in the Old Northeast.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Family+D ... ollar&z=17

Does the City have too much zoning for retail? Does allowing more retail zoning only displace other retail nearby? If the City zoned less for low-density retail, it might make existing empty retail buildings more valuable, and there would be less vacancies. If you want to create demand for something, allow it to become scarce.

Are simple building designs like a Family Dollar not creating value in the built environment? Do they often contribute to later blight too soon after they are built?

Is the City making continued mistakes by allowing new retail to be built that is not mixed use, and has a residential component? Apartments or offices built over the stores for example.

Is the parcel in question better served for addition of new multi-tenant residential instead of retail altogether?

Also, does the neighborhood benefit in the long-term by the addition of this specific type of retail.

The lessons over the last century show that Americans really suck at maintaining healthy cities and doing urban development.

Part of the problem is that elected city officials have very little understanding or knowledge about urban development, and what has been learned from mistakes made in the past. More often, these same elected officials get campaign funding from real estate interests, and they green light too many developments thrown in front of them whether it is in the public interest or not. They ask few questions when these proposals come up.
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chaglang
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Re: Troost developments

Post by chaglang »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:When the store is opened I would bet a large majority of the customers of the store would say there is way more than a zero upside to the store.
You missed the part where I said the same products are already for sale at the CVS across the street or the Walgreens 1/2 block away.
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chaglang
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Re: Troost developments

Post by chaglang »

loftguy wrote:My impression of the fight to stop a dollar store from opening on Troost is that the opposition is based on elitist fear and bigotry. People of means who equate a dollar store with a plasma center or a check-cashing store. Fear of the poor and unwashed.

Tell me what I'm missing, if I am.
You're missing the multiple low end retailers already in that area. You're missing the insertion of low density suburban stores into an already hollowed out part of town.

I live east of Troost. If I had a fear of the poor and unwashed, or if I was a bigot, I'd live somewhere else. But what bothers me about your argument -and AKP and Ember's- is the inference that because this is an economically depressed area we aren't entitled to raise the objections that people in better off neighborhoods would if they were in a similar situation. Nobody is making this argument against people who object to the Waldo Walmart- as if we should be happy for whatever we get because we are east of Troost. We're not elitists for rejecting the economic scraps thrown our way. We're residents who are trying to move the area past the fast food/liquor store/payday loan/dollar store level of retail. We want better options, and it strikes me as perverse that people here are assuming that the poor in the area don't want anything better than what they have now. Likewise, how is demanding that a dollar store build something better than an exposed fastener metal building (and respecting what's left of the urban fabric of the area) doing any disservice to the area? Again, people in better neighborhoods are lauded for championing good design. Why not on Troost?

Someone floated the idea that as the neighborhood improves, the low end stores will simply move out. If you were a retailer, would you leave a neighborhood that has more disposable income than when you built there? Of course not, especially if you own the building and land. Can anyone show me an area in Kansas City where dollar stores moved in, built buildings, and were eventually replaced by better retailers?
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Re: Troost developments

Post by smh »

chaglang wrote:
loftguy wrote:My impression of the fight to stop a dollar store from opening on Troost is that the opposition is based on elitist fear and bigotry. People of means who equate a dollar store with a plasma center or a check-cashing store. Fear of the poor and unwashed.

Tell me what I'm missing, if I am.
You're missing the multiple low end retailers already in that area. You're missing the insertion of low density suburban stores into an already hollowed out part of town.

I live east of Troost. If I had a fear of the poor and unwashed, or if I was a bigot, I'd live somewhere else. But what bothers me about your argument -and AKP and Ember's- is the inference that because this is an economically depressed area we aren't entitled to raise the objections that people in better off neighborhoods would if they were in a similar situation. Nobody is making this argument against people who object to the Waldo Walmart- as if we should be happy for whatever we get because we are east of Troost. We're not elitists for rejecting the economic scraps thrown our way. We're residents who are trying to move the area past the fast food/liquor store/payday loan/dollar store level of retail. We want better options, and it strikes me as perverse that people here are assuming that the poor in the area don't want anything better than what they have now. Likewise, how is demanding that a dollar store build something better than an exposed fastener metal building (and respecting what's left of the urban fabric of the area) doing any disservice to the area? Again, people in better neighborhoods are lauded for championing good design. Why not on Troost?

Someone floated the idea that as the neighborhood improves, the low end stores will simply move out. If you were a retailer, would you leave a neighborhood that has more disposable income than when you built there? Of course not, especially if you own the building and land. Can anyone show me an area in Kansas City where dollar stores moved in, built buildings, and were eventually replaced by better retailers?

=D> =D> =D>
aknowledgeableperson
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Re: Troost developments

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

chaglang wrote:I live east of Troost. If I had a fear of the poor and unwashed, or if I was a bigot, I'd live somewhere else. But what bothers me about your argument -and AKP and Ember's- is the inference that because this is an economically depressed area we aren't entitled to raise the objections that people in better off neighborhoods would if they were in a similar situation.
That was not the intention of my post. Participation in the economic development/political process is something that should have more participation by those affected, not less. But let's face it, not many retailers are interested, or other businesses, are interested in locating at the Troost location at this time nor in the foreseeable future. So if a retailer is interested in locating there instead of being outright against it a first wouldn't be prudent to work with it to make it acceptable and come to the neighborhood so it can provide services to it. So there are other similar type of retailers. Can't there be competition between them like there is in other neighborhoods?
Someone floated the idea that as the neighborhood improves, the low end stores will simply move out.
Well those low end stores are everywhere, even out here in Belton and Raymore. Will they completely disappear? No. But having them present does not keep out retailers going after a higher level of income. Even Walmart has locations in South JoCo. As I said, demographics have a higher impact on the location of retail than anything else.
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chaglang
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Re: Troost developments

Post by chaglang »

Competition? Jesus. We're talking about dollar stores.

So - again - the process that took place with the Dollar General at 43rd and Troost was that the variances were initially rejected by the neighborhood and BZA. Months later the company came back with a design that used more compatible materials and reoriented the building to align with the street wall. That's what was approved by Manheim Park and the BZA. See, negotiation.

However, the crux of this fight isn't design. That's secondary. This is about the concentration of these stores selling the same, low quality products, along with beer and wine. CVS is 250' north of the site. Walgreens is 250' south. The new Dollar General will be .4 miles north. Same shit, different vendors. No amount of accommodation or negotiation changes the nature of the store that's trying to build there.
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chaglang
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Re: Troost developments

Post by chaglang »

Competition? Jesus. We're talking about dollar stores.

So - again - the process that took place with the Dollar General at 43rd and Troost was that the variances were initially rejected by the neighborhood and BZA. Months later the company came back with a design that used more compatible materials and reoriented the building to align with the street wall. That's what was approved by Manheim Park and the BZA. See, negotiation.

However, the crux of this fight isn't design. That's secondary. This is about the concentration of these stores selling the same, low quality products, along with beer and wine. CVS is 250' north of the site. Walgreens is 250' south. The new Dollar General will be .4 miles north. Same shit, different vendors. No amount of accommodation or negotiation changes the nature of the store that's trying to build there.
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Re: Troost developments

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

Go ahead and object. That is your right. But it is up to you to convince you neighbors that your opinions are what is best. People have a different opinions and it looks like those that don't agree with you won out.
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Re: Troost developments

Post by chaglang »

One of the interesting outcomes of the first dollar store process (the one at 43rd and Troost) is that the Troost neighborhoods from Brush Creek to 27th laid the groundwork for a standing committee to address proposed developments like this one. This is the group that convinced the BZA to reject the first proposal for that building back in February. After the redesign was proposed, Manheim Park decided they could live with it, and the other neighborhoods backed off their opposition out of respect for it being in the Manheim neighborhood. I don't think people were less opposed to it than they were before the redesign, but there was a recognition that it was really Manheim's call. There was also an argument to be made that 43rd and Troost is on the fringes of an area not well served by retail of any type. Retail options in the stretch from there to Armour are scarce.

What's different about this is proposal is that it comes quickly on the heels of the other dollar store, and concentrates those stores at the intersection of Brush Creek & Troost. Doubtless the neighborhoods who opposed the first store will oppose this one, but I don't know if they will back off so readily if Manheim Park votes to support the proposal. I haven't heard which way they're leaning on this.
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Re: Troost developments

Post by loftguy »

Have you shopped in a dollar store?

There may be minor overlap, but they do not offer the same thing as CVS. They provide a broad range of products at competitive pricing, that so often is geographically out of reach for people in the urban core. If these folks start handling produce and flowers, upping the ante just a bit, even with some creative designwork on their buildings, they might broaden their customer base to include more of the Hyde Park residents (openly).
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Re: Troost developments

Post by kboish »

loftguy wrote:Have you shopped in a dollar store?

There may be minor overlap, but they do not offer the same thing as CVS. They provide a broad range of products at competitive pricing, that so often is geographically out of reach for people in the urban core. If these folks start handling produce and flowers, upping the ante just a bit, even with some creative designwork on their buildings, they might broaden their customer base to include more of the Hyde Park residents (openly).
I agree with you. Dollar Stores have a much larger offering than a CVS/Walgreens. They are not at all the same. Though I do agree with the previous argument Chaglang made comparing the Wal-Mart in Waldo opposition to the opposition to this development.
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Re: Troost developments

Post by chingon »

kboish wrote: Though I do agree with the previous argument Chaglang made comparing the Wal-Mart in Waldo opposition to the opposition to this development.
Which is bizarre, since the comment (alone among the rest of a reasonable post) was so demonstrably wrong. The internet is full of just such accusations of elitism and tacit racism:
What the anti-Walmart folks object to is anything associated with Walmart, and they're not content with not shopping there, they want to keep everyone else away, too.

In other words, they want to make up your mind for you.
You people who live in Brookside/Waldo and other little white enclaves and talk about your community are living in a bubble that is soon to be popped when Brookside/Waldo become part of the hood.
They don't want the thugs, lowlifes, and outsiders coming into the area for their essentials.
I'm sure they all travel to other neighborhoods to shop at Walmart. They just don't want it in their neighborhood
The Waldo residents are concerned because Wal-Mart will attract all the hood rats from east of Troost into their neighborhood.
etc.
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