Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

[DaveKCMO]

Petrol would have to double to deter [UK] drivers

Petrol prices would have to nearly double before drivers would consider switching to public transport, according to a poll on Monday.

Research for car insurer esure showed the tipping point would not come until the average price reached 1.83 pounds a litre from about 95.6 pence now.

The "Carry on Pumping" poll also found there was a substantial hard core of motorists (55 percent) who said they would never switch, whatever the petrol price.

"Public transport may never overtake people's preference for their own cars, whatever the cost," said esure's Mike Pickard.

"For many people, the absence of cheap public transport means a car is essential in their lives and virtually any price will be paid for petrol," the insurer's head of risk and underwriting added in a statement.

The poll by ICM of 644 drivers in May found that 37 percent of respondents would not consider replacing their car with a more fuel-efficient or environmentally friendly car in the next three years.

In addition, 79 percent have not changed their attitude towards buying petrol, despite recent price hikes. Although there are fuel-saving techniques drivers can adopt, 72 percent of drivers do not know what they are and a fifth say they cannot be bothered to put them into practice.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArt ... PETROL.xml

[mean]

"This research, funded by a car insurance company says that people will never give up their cars..."

[bbqboy]

Back to an original Question;
If you could run LRT and streetcars-where would you put the routes?

[GRID]

You guys should really save it.

You will waste the next year,five years, whatever talking about transit in KC.

If we are lucky, we might pave one of our nasty gravel commuter lots by 2012.

[staubio]

The more I hear about the possibilities of PRT, the more it scares me that it will further exacerbate sprawl and decentralization.  That, to me, is the big and largely unquantifiable benefit to LRT -- density and a forced corridor.  If we can get anywhere at 200 MPH, why not commute from Topeka or Lawrence to KC?  The idea of downtowns being convenient and full-service will be dead forever as there will be no need for that kind of density when you can get somewhere else in seconds.

Scary.

[warwickland]

The more I hear about the possibilities of PRT, the more it scares me that it will further exacerbate sprawl and decentralization.  That, to me, is the big and largely unquantifiable benefit to LRT -- density and a forced corridor.  If we can get anywhere at 200 MPH, why not commute from Topeka or Lawrence to KC?  The idea of downtowns being convenient and full-service will be dead forever as there will be no need for that kind of density when you can get somewhere else in seconds.

Scary.

that might be why i have an uneasy feeling about PRT. however - maybe it will encourage walkability (on a smaller scale) and what results is not as catastrophic as you might think. then again, it's not been tested. i do see a slippery slope between individual automated pods on rails and individual automated pods on existing infrastructure - roads...

[staubio]

that might be why i have an uneasy feeling about PRT. however - maybe it will encourage walkability (on a smaller scale) and what results is not as catastrophic as you might think. then again, it's not been tested. i do see a slippery slope between individual automated pods on rails and individual automated pods on existing infrastructure - roads...

I guess we can take solace in the fact that, eventually, we'll scale down development to be on the human scale again.  Whether that results in density or not is hard to tell.

[mean]

The thing is, density will be determined by market forces no matter what we build. People are moving to the city now, and will continue to, because they want to. We need to give all these people a more viable transit option. And when we do, more and more people will move to the city and density will only continue to increase.

I don't see it exacerbating sprawl and decentrilization, I see the opposite. Why would we force density down a single measly corridor, when we can encourage density all over the place? It will always be more convenient to utilize PRT for people living in more densely developed areas, because the density of the population will determine the density of the portals. Less dense areas around portals will become more dense, and as they do it will be easy to add more portals. Try that with light rail...

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't build Park and Rides in suburban areas. Indeed, we should do that, so people can come to the city without clogging it up with cars, and can get around easily anywhere they need to go. They might even like it enough to move.

[mean]

You guys should really save it.

You will waste the next year,five years, whatever talking about transit in KC.

If we are lucky, we might pave one of our nasty gravel commuter lots by 2012.

And while you sit and bitch and moan, some of us might actually do something...imagine that...

Or we might not. But at least we're talking about it. If you don't have something constructive or useful to say, why bother saying anything? Go sit around and feel sorry for yourself or something.

[warwickland]

The thing is, density will be determined by market forces no matter what we build. People are moving to the city now, and will continue to, because they want to.

i would argue that proper planning could encourage density above and beyond market forces, and that people are also choosing density for reasons beyond economics. it's [also] not as if we are living in a completely free market, and in my opinion it would be dangerous to slaughter the sacrifical lamb upon the alter of neo-classical econ. (over the top, i know.  )

[GRID]

And while you sit and bitch and moan, some of us might actually do something...imagine that...

Or we might not. But at least we're talking about it. If you don't have something constructive or useful to say, why bother saying anything? Go sit around and feel sorry for yourself or something.

I have done something, I've done a lot.  I've spent many hours and days over the past 20 years trying to bring a better transit system to KC all the while watching just about every other city in the nation actually build or expand theirs in less time than we can dust off our latest study and think about adding a few bus routes.  I grew up on the Metro, it's was my mode of transportation till I graduated from college.

I guess I'm burnt out on it and truly don't think I will see anything serious happen before I die and it's a bit disheartening because transit and transportation planning is what I do for a living.

Clay Chastain is the only person that has had any real vision on this issue.  Sure, he really doesn't know what he's doing or know how to get along with others etc, but he has kept the issue at least thought about.

We don't need commuter rail either, if it comes as part of a comprehensive regional system, fine, but we need a core transit system (fixed rail or true BRT) and we need feeder lines of buses and even light rail.  We especially need basic infrastructure on both the transit and traffic sides to support any sort of transit system from "real" park and rides to "real" transit centers to more HOV lanes (or at least bypass ramps) to bike and ped trails that tie it all together.

We can't do any of that till we at least figure out that we are one city not 50 cities in two states when it comes to funding it and that KCMO will require the vast majority of such regional funding for the entire system to make any sense.  I see it now, in order to get joco on board, we will end up spending 400 million on a damn commuter rail line along 35 that moves 900 people a day during peak hours while we still run max (regular city buses) in rivercrownplaza...

Transit is one of KC's downsides, that's all.

But seriously good luck, I hope something happens someday and vote yes on whatever chastian can get on the ballet till he forces the metro's leaders to do it themselves.

[staubio]

The thing is, density will be determined by market forces no matter what we build. People are moving to the city now, and will continue to, because they want to. We need to give all these people a more viable transit option. And when we do, more and more people will move to the city and density will only continue to increase.

I don't see it exacerbating sprawl and decentrilization, I see the opposite. Why would we force density down a single measly corridor, when we can encourage density all over the place? It will always be more convenient to utilize PRT for people living in more densely developed areas, because the density of the population will determine the density of the portals. Less dense areas around portals will become more dense, and as they do it will be easy to add more portals. Try that with light rail...

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't build Park and Rides in suburban areas. Indeed, we should do that, so people can come to the city without clogging it up with cars, and can get around easily anywhere they need to go. They might even like it enough to move.

Market forces are dictated by needs and wants and scarcity and all of that economic magic, and the need or desire for dense development is derived largely from time utility and quality of life resulting from quick access to services and entertainment.  Remove the barriers to achieving both and you remove some of the economic value of dense development.

Just being hypothetical, here.  I could see myself being more willing to locate in Roeland Park for half the cost of my condo if I knew I could hop a pod and be at the Opera in a matter of minutes -- less time than it would take me to walk from my current River Market home.

[warwickland]

GRID - folks don't get burned out caring about transit in KC, i mean everyone is so open minded that it is a pleasure to share knowledge on the subject. 

[justin8216]

"This research, funded by a car insurance company says that people will never give up their cars..."

Maybe the could sell "commuter insurance" for when you get mugged on public transit.

[ComandanteCero]

[BVC]

Maybe the could sell "commuter insurance" for when you get mugged on public transit.

Maybe they could throw in werewolf mauling insurance and dracula attack insurance for a discount with that policy.

[beccanator]

Did anyone watch Ruckus on KCPT tonight? Among other discussions (complaints about the new Star format, etc), Chastain was a main topic of discussion. Once again, rather than focusing on the concept of rapid transit, the panel spent almost the entirety of the segment criticizing Chastain personally, claiming that he has "no life" and throwing out the motto "I petition, therefore I am".

Why do so many Kansas Citians feel the need to focus so deliberately on the negative (if, in fact, it is so negative) rather than viewing the big picture and gleaning some inspiration from those who are repeatedly willing to invest time and energy in an idea, a form of which may prove to be feasible/beneficial for the region?

On the positive note, MARC's and ATA's work on the SmartMoves plan was mentioned as well as the success of the MAX and the increased ridership over the past quarter. These things, however, were fleetingly mentioned and then the chuckles and personal criticisms continued.

[GRID]

Did anyone watch Ruckus on KCPT tonight? Among other discussions (complaints about the new Star format, etc), Chastain was a main topic of discussion. Once again, rather than focusing on the concept of rapid transit, the panel spent almost the entirety of the segment criticizing Chastain personally, claiming that he has "no life" and throwing out the motto "I petition, therefore I am".

Why do so many Kansas Citians feel the need to focus so deliberately on the negative (if, in fact, it is so negative) rather than viewing the big picture and gleaning some inspiration from those who are repeatedly willing to invest time and energy in an idea, a form of which may prove to be feasible/beneficial for the region?

On the positive note, MARC's and ATA's work on the SmartMoves plan was mentioned as well as the success of the MAX and the increased ridership over the past quarter. These things, however, were fleetingly mentioned and then the chuckles and personal criticisms continued.

I saw a part of it, why is that show so damn joco biased, it's drives me nuts, get rose out of there.

The new Star is great IMO and chastain is more of a leader than 95% of our elected officials.

[lock+load]

Rose is a refreshing change from Yael Blue Shirt Abholakah.  They seriously need someone younger and urban minded on there.

[KCMax]

Really. I don't think any of the panelists live near downtown. Woody Cozad lives in the northland, Mary O'Halloran lives in JoCo, Yael lives near Raytown. I'm not sure where Deborah Holmes lives.