Downtown Baseball Stadium

[MidKC]

I don't trust billionaires, and I trust Sherman even less after his wife's facebook posts....

But, I think the election failing could end up being for the best.

1) I always thought a downtown stadium should be owned by the city, not the county. No reason to give people in Blue Springs and Lees Summit control over a building in OUR downtown. Nor, should people in those suburbs have to pay for a building that mostly benefits KCMO. If we end up with a city owned (or preferably privately owned) crossroads stadium is a far better outcome.

2) before the election neither owner would say how much money they were expecting from the city and state, which means they already have money lined up, they don't need another election to do what they were needed. Just increase the ownership side portion...

3) tax breaks, credits, etc and dedicated taxes on tickets or hotels like the arena tax makes so much more sense than taxing single mother's grocery bills. I have to agree that taxing poor people for a billionaire's stadium is a very bad way to fund it, find other ways.

4) the failed vote should be a wake up call that the arrowhead renovations were weak as hell. For $800 million, come on bro... The newest football stadium in the country at San Diego state was $310 million, you are telling me they could build an entire stadium with luxury boxes, scoreboards, and all that yet for 2.5 times as much we get upper deck concourse heaters and repaint the parking lot lines... BuT CoNsTrUcTiOn CoStS hAvE GoNe Up.. Shut up.

I might be in the minority but I’m not all that up in arms about his wife’s post. If the county refused to even negotiate with the teams, to the that they couldn’t even nail down a location or lease terms, and had to go around Frank White to secure a last minute veto to even get a vote, then they have to take all the heat for this being a rushed last minute process when they made their intentions clear 2 years ago. What’s changed to make them want to work with the county again?

[DColeKC]

I don't trust billionaires, and I trust Sherman even less after his wife's facebook posts....

But, I think the election failing could end up being for the best.

1) I always thought a downtown stadium should be owned by the city, not the county. No reason to give people in Blue Springs and Lees Summit control over a building in OUR downtown. Nor, should people in those suburbs have to pay for a building that mostly benefits KCMO. If we end up with a city owned (or preferably privately owned) crossroads stadium is a far better outcome.

2) before the election neither owner would say how much money they were expecting from the city and state, which means they already have money lined up, they don't need another election to do what they were needed. Just increase the ownership side portion...

3) tax breaks, credits, etc and dedicated taxes on tickets or hotels like the arena tax makes so much more sense than taxing single mother's grocery bills. I have to agree that taxing poor people for a billionaire's stadium is a very bad way to fund it, find other ways.

4) the failed vote should be a wake up call that the arrowhead renovations were weak as hell. For $800 million, come on bro... The newest football stadium in the country at San Diego state was $310 million, you are telling me they could build an entire stadium with luxury boxes, scoreboards, and all that yet for 2.5 times as much we get upper deck concourse heaters and repaint the parking lot lines... BuT CoNsTrUcTiOn CoStS hAvE GoNe Up.. Shut up.

Only thing I disagree with you on is trying to compare a 34,000 person college football stadium to a 70,000 person NFL stadium. Snapdragon Stadium is bare bones, much like KC Currents stadium. The technology upgrades alone at Arrowhead will be 100 million.

I don't disagree that the overall plans were underwhelming either. I think Clark Hunt needs to come out and say his money specifically will pay for the upgrades to premium areas and VIP suites.

[DColeKC]

I don't trust billionaires, and I trust Sherman even less after his wife's facebook posts....

But, I think the election failing could end up being for the best.

1) I always thought a downtown stadium should be owned by the city, not the county. No reason to give people in Blue Springs and Lees Summit control over a building in OUR downtown. Nor, should people in those suburbs have to pay for a building that mostly benefits KCMO. If we end up with a city owned (or preferably privately owned) crossroads stadium is a far better outcome.

2) before the election neither owner would say how much money they were expecting from the city and state, which means they already have money lined up, they don't need another election to do what they were needed. Just increase the ownership side portion...

3) tax breaks, credits, etc and dedicated taxes on tickets or hotels like the arena tax makes so much more sense than taxing single mother's grocery bills. I have to agree that taxing poor people for a billionaire's stadium is a very bad way to fund it, find other ways.

4) the failed vote should be a wake up call that the arrowhead renovations were weak as hell. For $800 million, come on bro... The newest football stadium in the country at San Diego state was $310 million, you are telling me they could build an entire stadium with luxury boxes, scoreboards, and all that yet for 2.5 times as much we get upper deck concourse heaters and repaint the parking lot lines... BuT CoNsTrUcTiOn CoStS hAvE GoNe Up.. Shut up.

I might be in the minority but I’m not all that up in arms about his wife’s post. If the county refused to even negotiate with the teams, to the that they couldn’t even nail down a location or lease terms, and had to go around Frank White to secure a last minute veto to even get a vote, then they have to take all the hear for this being a rushed last minute process when they made their intentions clear 2 years ago. What’s changed to make them want to work with the county again?

Fuck Frank White. Lying ass unintelligent fool who let his personal opinions steer his actions and pretended it was all for the people. The two year hold out and property tax disaster had a big part in this.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

I don't think KCT has as much power as some say but they do have influence. John Sherman 100% knows who they are as does every developer currently invested in KC or looking to invest in KC. They're a cancer to our development and backed by wealthy donors.

KCT has way too much influence over KCMO city council but that influence had absolutely nothing to do with this election. Nobody in Blue Springs or Lee's Summit or Oak Grove, etc. cares what KCT says. Downtown resident/boosters that voted no didn't do so because of anything KCT said.

Putting blame in the wrong place will just lead to bad decisions for whatever comes next for the teams. They've already proven themselves unable to make good decisions so they don't need to handicap themselves even more.

[GRID]

The reality is that KC Tenants will/would have come out against every possible proposal the Royals put on the table. The details are irrelevant, whether East Village, East Crossroads, saving the K, whatever. The issue is tax money going to a team owned by a billionaire, that doesn't change no matter where the stadium is built. Do they put up less of a stink if the stadium is built in Clay County or Kansas? Maybe. But, if the Royals go to the suburbs because they're scared of KC Tenants, that's just flat out embarrassing.

Thankfully, I doubt John Sherman even knows who they are and people on this board are insanely overstating their contribution to this election. The teams royally screwed this up. Best you can give credit to KC Tenants is that the teams made decisions that specifically fed into their narrative (throwing out small businesses, tearing down buildings, Arrowhead renovations only for VIPs). A better plan that doesn't feed that narrative takes away their oxygen. Mainstream voters don't listen to KC Tenants.

I don't think KCT has as much power as some say but they do have influence. John Sherman 100% knows who they are as does every developer currently invested in KC or looking to invest in KC. They're a cancer to our development and backed by wealthy donors.

I don't see how people don't see this.

[mourban]

Clay and Platte combined are half the size of Jackson. A Royals only tax would only need to be half the amount since the Chiefs are not involved. So the same 3/8 tax should raise about the same amount for the Royals. However, I think they can do it with state only money in the NKC site. It will be far cheaper than downtown with less opposition.

I said this way earlier in the thread but the NKC site will be hundreds of millions of dollars cheaper for the Royals

Why?

[KCPowercat]

The reality is that KC Tenants will/would have come out against every possible proposal the Royals put on the table. The details are irrelevant, whether East Village, East Crossroads, saving the K, whatever. The issue is tax money going to a team owned by a billionaire, that doesn't change no matter where the stadium is built. Do they put up less of a stink if the stadium is built in Clay County or Kansas? Maybe. But, if the Royals go to the suburbs because they're scared of KC Tenants, that's just flat out embarrassing.

Thankfully, I doubt John Sherman even knows who they are and people on this board are insanely overstating their contribution to this election. The teams royally screwed this up. Best you can give credit to KC Tenants is that the teams made decisions that specifically fed into their narrative (throwing out small businesses, tearing down buildings, Arrowhead renovations only for VIPs). A better plan that doesn't feed that narrative takes away their oxygen. Mainstream voters don't listen to KC Tenants.

I don't think KCT has as much power as some say but they do have influence. John Sherman 100% knows who they are as does every developer currently invested in KC or looking to invest in KC. They're a cancer to our development and backed by wealthy donors.

I don't see how people don't see this.

It's because they aren't the reason development projects have delayed/cancelled. They are the boggieman everybody is trying to blame when the simple answer is right in front of us. Interest rates, bad plans (looking at your Royals/Chiefs), KC doesn't grow at the rate people like us want it to, developers go out of business / get sued, etc. These weirdos in funny hats and yellow shirts ain't the reason.

[MidKC]

Some people see them as weirdos in funny hats, and other people see them as relatable and the only organization in the city looking out for them. So they do have influence. And Sherman is aware of them because Tara with KCT did an interview with Carrington Harrison from 610 Sports and said they were having meetings with Royals leadership. They did not feel the Royals were being transparent enough and they ended up coming out against at that point.

[CrossroadsUrbanApts]

I don't think KCT has as much power as some say but they do have influence. John Sherman 100% knows who they are as does every developer currently invested in KC or looking to invest in KC. They're a cancer to our development and backed by wealthy donors.

I don't see how people don't see this.

It's because they aren't the reason development projects have delayed/cancelled. They are the boggieman everybody is trying to blame when the simple answer is right in front of us. Interest rates, bad plans (looking at your Royals/Chiefs), KC doesn't grow at the rate people like us want it to, developers go out of business / get sued, etc. These weirdos in funny hats and yellow shirts ain't the reason.

I don't agree with this, as least not fully. I think at least several development projects from late 2019 through mid-2022 were stopped or cancelled due to the Council's changes to tax incentive policy. These changes were driven by KCT and its influence on the Council. Yes, starting in late 2022 I think interest rates and construction costs played a larger part of delaying or stopping developments. But interest rates will go down at some point but the ill-considered changes to the incentive policy will still be a problem (unless Council acts to fix them, which hopefully they are starting on).

I agree that KCT was not the primary reason that votes turned down Question 1, but they do have a lot of influence in KCMO proper and if the new plan for downtown baseball is some kind of KCMO-only tax, I'm skeptical how that gets on the ballot considering their influence over the mayor and council. And their public perception is at an all-time high right now.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

Some people see them as weirdos in funny hats, and other people see them as relatable and the only organization in the city looking out for them. So they do have influence. And Sherman is aware of them because Tara with KCT did an interview with Carrington Harrison from 610 Sports and said they were having meetings with Royals leadership. They did not feel the Royals were being transparent enough and they ended up coming out against at that point.

They have influence but if KCT didn't exist, this still wouldn't have come close to passing. You can't run a terrible last minute campaign with no real details presented to voters and expect to win. The teams feeding KCT's narrative helped KCT to have a bigger voice in this than they should have. If the teams had presented good plans with issues ironed out before going public, KCT would have been shouting into the wind.

[CrossroadsUrbanApts]

Some people see them as weirdos in funny hats, and other people see them as relatable and the only organization in the city looking out for them. So they do have influence. And Sherman is aware of them because Tara with KCT did an interview with Carrington Harrison from 610 Sports and said they were having meetings with Royals leadership. They did not feel the Royals were being transparent enough and they ended up coming out against at that point.

They have influence but if KCT didn't exist, this still wouldn't have come close to passing. You can't run a terrible last minute campaign with no real details presented to voters and expect to win. The teams feeding KCT's narrative helped KCT to have a bigger voice in this than they should have. If the teams had presented good plans with issues ironed out before going public, KCT would have been shouting into the wind.

This accurately states my view. Whether or not you support their policies, KCT is really good at spotting political opportunities and making the most of them. MidKC is right - they've come out of this debacle with the perception that they are the true voice for the people. Did you see the guy on Twitter straight up telling Manny Abarca that nothing related to housing policy in KCMO happens without KCT's approval? They are feeling it.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Fuck Frank White. Lying ass unintelligent fool who let his personal opinions steer his actions and pretended it was all for the people. The two year hold out and property tax disaster had a big part in this.

You are giving White far too much credit. At first he was working on trying to get a deal for the team to stay at TSC (as told by someone close to this). And as County Executive that was his primary responsibility, protecting county assets. Personal opinions? We all have them, don't we? His feelings about how much county taxes are currently being used to support the teams compared to the county's other needs that are underfunded is a valid concern is it not? And I would imagine once Sherman cut off any TSC option why should he support a county tax for another location, especially in or by downtown KCMO? He among many others feel that option was more to the benefit of KCMO than to those county residents outside of KCMO so let the city use its tax resources instead of the county. Then maybe the county could have a sales tax to address county needs.
Not saying White was a perfect angel in this matter but his so-called lack of cooperation IMO was in good faith for the most part. The failure of this election falls directly on the shoulders of Sherman and the team. Setting an artificial deadline for an election when team plans for the chosen site weren't even close to be complete is not the fault of White. Face it, Sherman didn't get his shit together and he, and others, have no one else to blame than Sherman. This would be a good case study for college students on how not to run a tax election for your benefit.
And the property tax disaster likely had little to almost zilch effect on the election results, at least to those I know who voted no. And KC tenants, given the vote results that are close to the same in KCMO and county outside of KCMO, I would think had minimal impact.

[phuqueue]

I think Clark Hunt needs to come out and say his money specifically will pay for the upgrades to premium areas and VIP suites.

I'm sure a lot of minds will be changed if voters learn that their money will merely free up Hunt's contribution to cover exclusively VIP shit, rather than paying for it directly. They'll be excited to hand over hundreds of millions of dollars for an empty field in the parking lot and invisible structural repairs as long as they understand that steps have been taken to separate out the otherwise-completely-fungible money for this project to ensure that, in some technical sense, Hunt is the one paying for all the stuff they are too poor to enjoy.

[GRID]

Chiefs fans would have voted yes to just about anything. The Chiefs plan was terrible, but it barely got any pushback.

The Royals moving downtown is 90% of the issue here. It would not have passed even if the "save the crossroads" campaign didn't happen. As a matter of fact if it were not for the Chiefs, that vote would have been so much worse. Probably 70% no.

I have said all along, that the Royals are not going to get the support of a county wide vote for a new stadium. Probably ever. And they may not get a city wide KCMO vote either for the same reasons (much of KCMO is suburban and it's already a high tax city with little in return).

Most cities seem to get around public votes for stadiums. That may be the only option. I just don't see the state of MO doing for KC what others states do for their cities. Even if the governor wanted to, he is likely to get canceled by the politicians from StL and the rest of MO much like what happened here when VA governor tried to build a new arena for the DC capitals and wizards. DC was able to save the teams with 500 million and without a public vote.

[KCPowercat]

Chiefs fans would have voted yes to just about anything. The Chiefs plan was terrible, but it barely got any pushback.

I don't have insight into why people said no obviously but that ballot results seem like pushback to me. Locally I don't know one person who was even slightly impressed with what the Chiefs rolled out. Everybody laughed at it.

The Royals moving downtown is 90% of the issue here. It would not have passed even if the "save the crossroads" campaign didn't happen. As a matter of fact if it were not for the Chiefs, that vote would have been so much worse. Probably 70% no.

and to my previous comment above, neither to you know why to even be close to accurate making this claim. It's all anecdotal what any of us here but I only heard I voted no but I would like a downtown baseball stadium, that plan just sucked.

[KCPowercat]

I don't see how people don't see this.

It's because they aren't the reason development projects have delayed/cancelled. They are the boggieman everybody is trying to blame when the simple answer is right in front of us. Interest rates, bad plans (looking at your Royals/Chiefs), KC doesn't grow at the rate people like us want it to, developers go out of business / get sued, etc. These weirdos in funny hats and yellow shirts ain't the reason.

I don't agree with this, as least not fully. I think at least several development projects from late 2019 through mid-2022 were stopped or cancelled due to the Council's changes to tax incentive policy. These changes were driven by KCT and its influence on the Council. Yes, starting in late 2022 I think interest rates and construction costs played a larger part of delaying or stopping developments. But interest rates will go down at some point but the ill-considered changes to the incentive policy will still be a problem (unless Council acts to fix them, which hopefully they are starting on).

I agree that KCT was not the primary reason that votes turned down Question 1, but they do have a lot of influence in KCMO proper and if the new plan for downtown baseball is some kind of KCMO-only tax, I'm skeptical how that gets on the ballot considering their influence over the mayor and council. And their public perception is at an all-time high right now.

that's fine, it's just my opinion. I'm not saying they have zero influence, it's just not material. Tax incentive policy change was coming way before KCT was even a thing.

[GRID]

Chiefs fans would have voted yes to just about anything. The Chiefs plan was terrible, but it barely got any pushback.

I don't have insight into why people said no obviously but that ballot results seem like pushback to me. Locally I don't know one person who was even slightly impressed with what the Chiefs rolled out. Everybody laughed at it.

The Royals moving downtown is 90% of the issue here. It would not have passed even if the "save the crossroads" campaign didn't happen. As a matter of fact if it were not for the Chiefs, that vote would have been so much worse. Probably 70% no.

and to my previous comment above, neither to you know why to even be close to accurate making this claim. It's all anecdotal what any of us here but I only heard I voted no but I would like a downtown baseball stadium, that plan just sucked.

Jackson County is a big place outside of downtown...

[CrossroadsUrbanApts]

It's because they aren't the reason development projects have delayed/cancelled. They are the boggieman everybody is trying to blame when the simple answer is right in front of us. Interest rates, bad plans (looking at your Royals/Chiefs), KC doesn't grow at the rate people like us want it to, developers go out of business / get sued, etc. These weirdos in funny hats and yellow shirts ain't the reason.

I don't agree with this, as least not fully. I think at least several development projects from late 2019 through mid-2022 were stopped or cancelled due to the Council's changes to tax incentive policy. These changes were driven by KCT and its influence on the Council. Yes, starting in late 2022 I think interest rates and construction costs played a larger part of delaying or stopping developments. But interest rates will go down at some point but the ill-considered changes to the incentive policy will still be a problem (unless Council acts to fix them, which hopefully they are starting on).

I agree that KCT was not the primary reason that votes turned down Question 1, but they do have a lot of influence in KCMO proper and if the new plan for downtown baseball is some kind of KCMO-only tax, I'm skeptical how that gets on the ballot considering their influence over the mayor and council. And their public perception is at an all-time high right now.

that's fine, it's just my opinion. I'm not saying they have zero influence, it's just not material. Tax incentive policy change was coming way before KCT was even a thing.

That's fair, I agree tax incentive policy changes pre-dated KCT's appearance on the scene. But KCT made it their signature issue and used their influence to insist that any compromise wasn't acceptable. So refining or rolling back the less well-thought-out aspects of the 2019 ordinance became pretty much impossible. But I'll stop here because I'm getting off topic (sorry).

[DColeKC]

Fuck Frank White. Lying ass unintelligent fool who let his personal opinions steer his actions and pretended it was all for the people. The two year hold out and property tax disaster had a big part in this.

You are giving White far too much credit. At first he was working on trying to get a deal for the team to stay at TSC (as told by someone close to this). And as County Executive that was his primary responsibility, protecting county assets. Personal opinions? We all have them, don't we? His feelings about how much county taxes are currently being used to support the teams compared to the county's other needs that are underfunded is a valid concern is it not? And I would imagine once Sherman cut off any TSC option why should he support a county tax for another location, especially in or by downtown KCMO? He among many others feel that option was more to the benefit of KCMO than to those county residents outside of KCMO so let the city use its tax resources instead of the county. Then maybe the county could have a sales tax to address county needs.
Not saying White was a perfect angel in this matter but his so-called lack of cooperation IMO was in good faith for the most part. The failure of this election falls directly on the shoulders of Sherman and the team. Setting an artificial deadline for an election when team plans for the chosen site weren't even close to be complete is not the fault of White. Face it, Sherman didn't get his shit together and he, and others, have no one else to blame than Sherman. This would be a good case study for college students on how not to run a tax election for your benefit.
And the property tax disaster likely had little to almost zilch effect on the election results, at least to those I know who voted no. And KC tenants, given the vote results that are close to the same in KCMO and county outside of KCMO, I would think had minimal impact.

Everyone has opinions but have we forgot that the Royals fired him from the broadcasting team in 2011? Have we forgot that he played baseball at Kauffman Stadium and won a championship there? He's far too attached to that stadium and did everything he could to stop this from happening with the fake cover of it being about taxpayers.

[KCPowercat]

Chiefs fans would have voted yes to just about anything. The Chiefs plan was terrible, but it barely got any pushback.

I don't have insight into why people said no obviously but that ballot results seem like pushback to me. Locally I don't know one person who was even slightly impressed with what the Chiefs rolled out. Everybody laughed at it.

The Royals moving downtown is 90% of the issue here. It would not have passed even if the "save the crossroads" campaign didn't happen. As a matter of fact if it were not for the Chiefs, that vote would have been so much worse. Probably 70% no.

and to my previous comment above, neither to you know why to even be close to accurate making this claim. It's all anecdotal what any of us here but I only heard I voted no but I would like a downtown baseball stadium, that plan just sucked.

Jackson County is a big place outside of downtown...

physically huge, also not as many voters. Let's not pretend only downtown people like the idea of a downtown park.