Downtown Baseball Stadium

[taxi]

Guess I better surrender my membership in the National Trust for Historic Preservation. I'm not an extreme zelot.

I thought my point was obvious. There is no reason to tear down Green Dirt Farms or the old fire station – which has been re-purposed and in use for over a decade – when there is plenty of room to build the other auxiliary crap nearby.

[Chris Stritzel]

2 days out from the election. Let's hear your final predictions for how the vote goes.

I'll start. I believe it'll pass, but narrowly. 51% to 49%.

No matter the outcome of the election, I expect both the Chiefs and Royals will set out on trying to remake their image after a process that could've been handled better.

The "no" crowd has been loud on social media, but I haven't heard or seen anything of theirs on TV, Radio, or out canvassing the county. The "yes" crowd is relatively quiet on social media with more ads being run on TV, Radio, and canvassing occurring across the county. Both sides picked up a series of endorsements. It's a literal coin toss as to which campaign methods and endorsements matter more (if at all).

Will the "no" crowd win because of the KCTenants, select Crossroads business owners, Show-Me Institute, Save the K, and KCStar alliance?

Or will the "yes" crowd win because of their endorsements from star athletes, labor unions, the Mayor, The Call Newspaper, and some other select Crossroads business owners?

I'm riding with "yes".

[mean]

I would be a little surprised if it didn't pass, just based on precedent. Personally, I'm still leaning no, but not as rabidly as the last time this came up less than 20 years ago. Probably still vote no, but honestly don't care enough either way to argue about it.

[DColeKC]

Fake neighborhood account! So proud the Cruz/DeSantis machine is working in KC.

https://x.com/kclightrail/status/177441 ... Y5vRYfiNJA

Didn’t you all take the more spineless position of neutrality? “We have worked directly with the Royals to get things we demand but we don’t support or oppose”.

i don't see how this is anything other than a bad faith trolling effort by you, man.

Correct. Well, I wouldn’t call it trolling, I’d call it giving someone shit.

[DColeKC]

Guess I better surrender my membership in the National Trust for Historic Preservation. I'm not an extreme zelot.

I thought my point was obvious. There is no reason to tear down Green Dirt Farms or the old fire station – which has been re-purposed and in use for over a decade – when there is plenty of room to build the other auxiliary crap nearby.

The old fire department has been gutted and converted into a residence. The only thing reminding us it’s a an old fire station are people on this forum and a sign on the exterior. Not hardly worth keeping as it’s history has already been stripped clean.

[aknowledgeableperson]

The old fire department has been gutted and converted into a residence. The only thing reminding us it’s a an old fire station are people on this forum and a sign on the exterior. Not hardly worth keeping as it’s history has already been stripped clean.

It has been awhile since I have been downtown but two items come to mind about preservation. Wasn't the old Jenkins Music Company facade incorporated into a parking structure? And the old name ATT Town Pavillion, wasn't an old building incorporated into that structure?

[KCPowercat]

53% yes down from my previous prediction of 57

[moderne]

The old fire department has been gutted and converted into a residence. The only thing reminding us it’s a an old fire station are people on this forum and a sign on the exterior. Not hardly worth keeping as it’s history has already been stripped clean.

It has been awhile since I have been downtown but two items come to mind about preservation. Wasn't the old Jenkins Music Company facade incorporated into a parking structure? And the old name ATT Town Pavillion, wasn't an old building incorporated into that structure?

Yes and yes. I think the U-Haul building might be a good candidate for incorporation into what ever Sherman ends up putting in those blocks. Like the Boley was incorporated into the Towne Pavillion complex.

[DColeKC]

The old fire department has been gutted and converted into a residence. The only thing reminding us it’s a an old fire station are people on this forum and a sign on the exterior. Not hardly worth keeping as it’s history has already been stripped clean.

It has been awhile since I have been downtown but two items come to mind about preservation. Wasn't the old Jenkins Music Company facade incorporated into a parking structure? And the old name ATT Town Pavillion, wasn't an old building incorporated into that structure?

Yes and yes. I think the U-Haul building might be a good candidate for incorporation into what ever Sherman ends up putting in those blocks. Like the Boley was incorporated into the Towne Pavillion complex.

I LOVE the Boley building.

[Highlander]

The old fire department has been gutted and converted into a residence. The only thing reminding us it’s a an old fire station are people on this forum and a sign on the exterior. Not hardly worth keeping as it’s history has already been stripped clean.

It has been awhile since I have been downtown but two items come to mind about preservation. Wasn't the old Jenkins Music Company facade incorporated into a parking structure? And the old name ATT Town Pavillion, wasn't an old building incorporated into that structure?

Yes and yes. I think the U-Haul building might be a good candidate for incorporation into what ever Sherman ends up putting in those blocks. Like the Boley was incorporated into the Towne Pavillion complex.

I'd be concerned only about maintaining the size of the building. The façade is nothing special. It's brick and not especially ornamented with the lower part covered and potentially destroyed(?).

ttps://www.google.com/maps/@39.094638,-94.5776 ... ?entry=ttu

[GRID]

The only thing special about that u-haul building is it's a pretty large structure in a part of downtown that has few large structures.

If they can incorporate it, great. But if something substantial replaces it, that's great too.

[GRID]

As far as my thoughts on this passing. I'm not sure still. Honestly I get the same vibes as I got with the city proposed light rail plan. Everybody all along said it was very close 50/50 and I felt like it had a chance of passing, but it failed by quite a bit.

I think this might get voted down by just a percent or two.

I just don't see enough of the county supporting a downtown stadium. And when you combine that with the "save the crossroads" crowd, I just think it's going to be tough to pass.

Sad thing is the voters should be mad at the Chiefs, not the Royals. The Royals are the ones doing this right for the long term of the city and tax payers. But few seem to care that the Chiefs are the ones that are kind of screwing tax payers. I think the Chiefs will still be in a new stadium within 25-30 years, at least ten years before the tax expires. The Chiefs even know this which is why they are barely contributing anything to the stadium and they are only signing a 25 year lease.

And those that do really know the info might even vote against this because the Chiefs plan is not really a great plan so the Chiefs may not have as much carry as people think if they would have put more private money into their plan and did something a little more exciting.

[DaveKCMO]

Worth noting that the team hasn't signed anything with the Crossroads yet. They have a final draft...

[KCPowercat]

The only thing special about that u-haul building is it's a pretty large structure in a part of downtown that has few large structures.

If they can incorporate it, great. But if something substantial replaces it, that's great too.

I mean it's also OLD! why are we so quick to tear down now a days. There is zero reason the Royals couldn't reuse that building for their hotel, team offices, residential.

[GRID]

The only thing special about that u-haul building is it's a pretty large structure in a part of downtown that has few large structures.

If they can incorporate it, great. But if something substantial replaces it, that's great too.

I mean it's also OLD! why are we so quick to tear down now a days. There is zero reason the Royals couldn't reuse that building for their hotel, team offices, residential.

I agree and I think they should try. It would help the stadium tie into the crossroads district better.

[KCPowercat]

The only thing special about that u-haul building is it's a pretty large structure in a part of downtown that has few large structures.

If they can incorporate it, great. But if something substantial replaces it, that's great too.

I mean it's also OLD! why are we so quick to tear down now a days. There is zero reason the Royals couldn't reuse that building for their hotel, team offices, residential.

I agree and I think they should try. It would help the stadium tie into the crossroads district better.

That's the spirit. Totally agree s couple reused buildings help tie in new and old

[FangKC]

Preservation isn't always about a building being a historic site (forefathers met here to write a constitution). Many preservation efforts are just as much about conserving the built environment. Reusing buildings over and over and not resorting to throwaway culture. It recognizes that construction and material production caused pollution and the burning of carbon fuels that are still up in the atmosphere decades later. Europeans have been reusing old buildings for centuries. That's why in some places you have 400 or 500-year-old structures still housing retail businesses or providing homes.

Sherman could develop around the stadium and not tear down many buildings east of Oak. They could be retained and incorporated in redevelopment by building on vacant land and perhaps removing just some small non-descript buildings. There are plenty of parcels Sherman can build on. It doesn't have to be one complete cleared block (see below).

As for any assertion that there is nothing special east of Oak. It's rich to say that seeing that Cordish essentially constructed one and two-story retail buildings in the P&L District.

Why is this building any less "special" than this building Cordish built? At least it has had businesses in it that have been paying their full ride in taxes.



Or this one.



Or this one.



Or these.



It's a bullshit argument. Cordish built many buildings of the same scale in P&L. None are that special either. You get a much more interesting city when you mix old buildings with new buildings than when you get all new construction. This is especially true when one architecture firm is designing everything. When that happens, it can turn out to be sterile development. We see this with new apartment building designs that lack imagination.

For me, the argument always comes down to whether a structure is still functional for some purpose. These are. You can do development around them by using small infill new structures and larger ones on already vacant lots, or by editing out a few small structures. A neighborhood doesn't need every building to be a tower. When this is done, it encourages development to move on to other blocks and not one or two big blocks. It also means the neighborhood doesn't end up with monolithic structures and blank walls from big parking garages.

The point is not that the firehouse is exactly like it was when it was a firehouse. It still can be reused in some way that provides an interesting space for a restaurant or bar. It has room to the south for an outdoor dining terrace. Its history is what would make the space unique.

Downtown needs to keep these old buildings because they provide cheaper rents for startup businesses and allow our residents to go places that aren't chains. They provide spaces for takeout restaurants, chiropractors, etc.

[aknowledgeableperson]

As far as my thoughts on this passing. I'm not sure still. Honestly I get the same vibes as I got with the city proposed light rail plan. Everybody all along said it was very close 50/50 and I felt like it had a chance of passing, but it failed by quite a bit.

I think this might get voted down by just a percent or two.

I just don't see enough of the county supporting a downtown stadium. And when you combine that with the "save the crossroads" crowd, I just think it's going to be tough to pass.

Sad thing is the voters should be mad at the Chiefs, not the Royals. The Royals are the ones doing this right for the long term of the city and tax payers. But few seem to care that the Chiefs are the ones that are kind of screwing tax payers. I think the Chiefs will still be in a new stadium within 25-30 years, at least ten years before the tax expires. The Chiefs even know this which is why they are barely contributing anything to the stadium and they are only signing a 25 year lease.

And those that do really know the info might even vote against this because the Chiefs plan is not really a great plan so the Chiefs may not have as much carry as people think if they would have put more private money into their plan and did something a little more exciting.

The feeling in non-KC portion of the county is screw downtown. And I think there is a similar sentiment in South KC past Bannister Road.
Come Wednesday it will be interesting to see where the yes/no votes are within the county. If there is a large turnout in the non-KC part of the county I see the measure not even coming close to passing.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Comments by one who has long term ties to KC.
"Subject: ROYALS OWNERSHIP TO KANSAS CITY: ''LET THEM EAT CAKE.''
Hello Mr. Helling, [Feb 13, 2024]
I've read some of your articles on this subject and must lead off with the disclaimer that my work schedule is such that I could well have missed that others have already noted some of the things mentioned below.
The nonsense statements by the design firm pushing for a Crossroads stadium site can only have been made by someone who (1) has seldom, if ever, had to drive through the area after about 3 pm, and (2) is secure in the knowledge that if they are going to attend an occasional game at a stadium there, they will be able to pull into the very small number of on-site spaces reserved for VIPs. I’m also willing to bet that they have never in their lives ridden a city bus let alone had to experience the joys as I have of not being able to board a Plaza-bound bus at Union Station because they are already full. The streetcars, while nice, will not fundamentally change that without quite a bit of extra capacity during surge periods.
The oft repeated ”40,000 parking spaces within a 10-minute [now 20-minute] walk’’ is technically true but blows by the pesky fact that, gosh, there’s people who live and work down there who’s cars already take up quite a few of those spots. Moreover, baseball won’t be the only game in downtown. [There's] Bartle, the Municipal Auditorium, the Kauffman and T-Mobile centers, [plus the new women's soccer stadium] all of which operate on their own schedules. I suspect that the fellow who made the glib pronouncement that “existing parking downtown can accommodate fans who drive to games” has never had to go on a safari to hunt down decent parking when multiple facilities have simultaneous events.
None of this, of course, addresses the plain fact that business in the Crossroads itself will be choked off by the Stadium traffic. Says the firm designing the stadium: “The beauty of the Crossroads sites is that we can park all 9,000 people that we need to park, all 9,000 cars, with existing lots." So, during game days if you want to go to a business in the Crossroads you will either drive endlessly, block by block by block searching for a spot where someone has just pulled out or park in one of the Crown Center lots and just hoof it? But have no fear. The Royals’ owners “want to be good neighbors.”
The baseball fans themselves, of which I am one, will be in for much the same thing due to the aforementioned competing events, downtown workers, Crossroads - Power & Light patrons, and so on during the parking lot / spot gridlock within the notional “10 [now -20] minute walk” area. Upon experiencing this a couple times people, frankly, will just start cutting back on the number of games they attend. After the notoriety and curiosity of the first year or so, watch for a steadily decline in attendance.
Lastly, while it has not yet had time to percolate, the broad-daylight mass shooting at Union Station has prompted two women and one man I know –– all with families and all who periodically go to Kauffman Stadium –– to state that they are “unlikely” or “won’t” go to games at that specific location. The common opinion among them is that if a police presence of 800 can’t prevent a modern-day repeat of the Union Station Massacre in the middle of the day and while thousands of people around, just how safe is it going to be as the throngs of exiting fans gets thinner and thinner as they reach the outer edges of that 10-minute –– now ''20-minute'' –– radius at night?
–– Dennis Giangreco (D. M. Giangreco)"

[taxi]

Well, get a load of this. John Sherman comes out to explain exactly why the new stadium belongs in the Crossroads.
https://youtu.be/xlcIgzmER9k?si=Ig4E1yJ_hYYsRDTw