Downtown Baseball Stadium

[KCPowercat]

Yeah, I get that. The studies don't take into account the intangible and quality of life effects though.

Honestly don't get why team owners can't just take out loans to pay for stadiums, but that's just how it is and KC alone can't change it.

Exactly. Quality of life is the play not pure this makes KC money.

They definitely do take out loans for their portion, they just don't want to take out more than they have to.

[Highlander]

I just don't buy the idea that having pro teams does not give your city an economic boost. "people just go bowling instead" lol.

There are studies that show there is not a benefit. I don't believe them - nor should anyone. Most of them are prepared by libertarian groups like the Show Me institute that oppose any public-private project like a baseball stadium. They recently produced a document showing how the streetcar hurts Kansas City's economy.

I'd argue that the data doesn't really exist to allow any kind of evaluation of the impact of a sports team on n area's economy. I know when I retired recently, a lot went into my decision on where to live in retirement. The existence of professional baseball absolutely figured into my decision to relocate to KC (along with many other factors). Baseball is something I enjoy and could easily afford in retirement as opposed to the high price of a Chiefs game. I am sure I'm not alone in that regard. In an era where people can select where they want to live (rather than the company they work for choosing for them), attributes like professional sports will very much influence some people's choice. For a city that is not in the sunbelt, on a coast, next to mountains or contains unique recreational opportunities, baseball offers its citizens something to do that people in a few similar sized metros do not have access to. How do you quantify that?

I've seen a lot of "who cares" sentiment about potentially losing the Royals. People need to be very careful what they wish for.

[CrossroadsUrbanApts]

I am only semi-educated on this subject, but my understanding is that the most relevant economic studies are pretty conclusive that pro sports stadiums don't seem to result in any sustained general increase in economic activity region-wide. But it does shift the distribution of that economic activity within that region. In other words, money spent at or near the ballpark would likely have been spent elsewhere in the metro. If someone spends $250 downtown in or around the ballpark instead of spending that at Lenexa City Center, that seems like a win to me. But I admit to being terrifically biased towards downtown and its environs.

One reason I was so supportive of the streetcar, beyond any transportation benefits, was that I think it was effective in attracting development specifically to the streetcar route. In a sense, it helped solve a collective action problem by incentivizing development to cluster in a specific area. It may be the case that most of the projects built along the streetcar route may have still been built - just elsewhere in the metro area. But I think the city is better off in the long run (from a fiscal sustainability standpoint) to have that development as clustered as possible rather than dispersed across a larger area. Clustered development also benefits from the positive spillover effects of increased density.

My heartburn with the Crossroads stadium location site is in part due to the expected shift in distribution of economic activity I spoke about in the first paragraph. Some businesses will very likely come out way ahead (breweries, restaurants, etc.) as economic activity shifts from other areas of towns towards them; while other businesses will likely be hurt as the ballpark shifts their customer base away towards other areas of the city. Now, I don't believe any neighborhood can be encased in amber. The Crossroads of 2024 is already very different than the Crossroads of 2014. But to my estimation the Crossroads was already experiencing a general increase in economic activity without the ballpark. Same couldn't be said about inside the loop, especially on the eastern side. Which is why East Village (or maybe Vine District) seemed like better options to absorb a significant influx of economic activity with less dislocation.

[Highlander]

I am only semi-educated on this subject, but my understanding is that the most relevant economic studies are pretty conclusive that pro sports stadiums don't seem to result in any sustained general increase in economic activity region-wide. But it does shift the distribution of that economic activity within that region. In other words, money spent at or near the ballpark would likely have been spent elsewhere in the metro. If someone spends $250 downtown in or around the ballpark instead of spending that at Lenexa City Center, that seems like a win to me. But I admit to being terrifically biased towards downtown and its environs.

One reason I was so supportive of the streetcar, beyond any transportation benefits, was that I think it was effective in attracting development specifically to the streetcar route. In a sense, it helped solve a collective action problem by incentivizing development to cluster in a specific area. It may be the case that most of the projects built along the streetcar route may have still been built - just elsewhere in the metro area. But I think the city is better off in the long run (from a fiscal sustainability standpoint) to have that development as clustered as possible rather than dispersed across a larger area. Clustered development also benefits from the positive spillover effects of increased density.

My heartburn with the Crossroads stadium location site is in part due to the expected shift in distribution of economic activity I spoke about in the first paragraph. Some businesses will very likely come out way ahead (breweries, restaurants, etc.) as economic activity shifts from other areas of towns towards them; while other businesses will likely be hurt as the ballpark shifts their customer base away towards other areas of the city. Now, I don't believe any neighborhood can be encased in amber. The Crossroads of 2024 is already very different than the Crossroads of 2014. But to my estimation the Crossroads was already experiencing a general increase in economic activity without the ballpark. Same couldn't be said about inside the loop, especially on the eastern side. Which is why East Village (or maybe Vine District) seemed like better options to absorb a significant influx of economic activity with less dislocation.

No doubt stadiums and streetcars shift momentum and wealth within the city but I don't think any study can conclusively say that pro sports don't result in sustained general increase in economic activity metro wide. There's just far too many intangible variables to consider to make that statement conclusively. The necessary data to come to that conclusion just doesn't exist. What would KC be today without being placed on the radar by baseball and particularly by the NFL over the last 60 years? There's no way to really answer that question. It's far more complicated than saying the stadiums cost X and the amount of visits from out of town generate X. Like I said, pro sports certainly influenced (it wasn't the only selling point) my decision to retire here and all the money I spend nearly 365 days per year and the taxes that generates. Pro-sports contributes to the overall quality of life which further impacts decisions on where to live and that has to be evaluated on a city by city basis.

Your term "encased in amber" is the key point here. A decision by a Cerner-sized corporation to locate downtown would probably have even greater impact on the area. The area needed for office space, the demand in housing it would create (it was never going to create a demand in SE KCMO but it actually could downtown), the increase in rental price etc.... Another large sized add to critical mass. Conversely, if DT loses one or two more large employers, the same businesses could be equally stressed. As you laid it out very elegantly, the area is in a continual state of evolution. What won't happen downtown, however, in the next 50 years or so is a downtown baseball stadium if the stadium ends up elsewhere in the metro and KC repeats the same "urbanicide" that it has experienced and encouraged over and over again since the 1950's.

[cardium]

Short of an extended eras tour residency you won't ever be able to make the economic math add up in reality. Something like that actually would bring in the money from outside the local economy.

On a different note, I don't think I have any confidence in the general competence or political acumen of the team organizations or ownership, at least going off of what's publically available. If what we've seen so far is indicative of what the future holds, then I'm not holding my breath.

We lucked out quite a bit with the airport in terms of project delivery, short of the awarded concession operator not getting their shit together quick enough. I'm just not getting the same vibes here, and those certainly weren't great to begin witv. Reading the LOI here makes me feel somewhat better that someone, somewhere knows what's going on....until getting to the last page and seeing that there wasn't a designated person to sign for the Royals LLC.
https://htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com ... 9ef594.pdf

(I was just searching for the LOI doc and I don't even know where this is actually hosted, but...hmm).

Beggars can't be choosers but in this scenario who is who? (Wassup Brewers?)

[DColeKC]

KC Current: zero incentives from city, county or state. Sold out the entire season and ticket prices starting at $150/ea. someone explain to me how $1.7B in incentives for the new Royals is a better deal than lowly women’s soccer?

Because it cost 1/10th of what a new MLB stadium will cost. If they could build a new MlB stadium for under 150m I’m sure they’d not ask for a penny.

Not to mention the Current is rolling high off the “first” this and first that. People are rightfully excited but will it last or will it quickly be mostly determined based on wins vs loses?

[KCPowercat]

KC Current: zero incentives from city, county or state. Sold out the entire season and ticket prices starting at $150/ea. someone explain to me how $1.7B in incentives for the new Royals is a better deal than lowly women’s soccer?

Because it cost 1/10th of what a new MLB stadium will cost. If they could build a new MlB stadium for under 150m I’m sure they’d not ask for a penny.

and I'm guessing the Current's P&L is even less than 1/10th of the royals.

[alejandro46]

KC Current: zero incentives from city, county or state. Sold out the entire season and ticket prices starting at $150/ea. someone explain to me how $1.7B in incentives for the new Royals is a better deal than lowly women’s soccer?

Because it cost 1/10th of what a new MLB stadium will cost. If they could build a new MlB stadium for under 150m I’m sure they’d not ask for a penny.

and I'm guessing the Current's P&L is even less than 1/10th of the royals.

The [NWSL] salary cap for the 2024 season will be $2,750,000 per team, up nearly 40% from a cap of $1,375,000 plus $600,000 in allocation money available to each team in 2023. Relatedly, teams can no longer purchase new allocation money and must use any remaining funds by the end of 2026.

Major League Baseball (MLB) does not have a hard salary cap, but it does use the Competitive Balance Tax (CBT), also known as the luxury tax, to limit big spenders. Clubs that exceed a predetermined payroll threshold are taxed on each dollar above the threshold. The tax rate increases based on the number of consecutive years a club has exceeded the threshold. In 2023, the threshold was $233 million. In 2024, the Dodgers are estimated to be over the fourth and highest threshold of $297 million

KC Royals estimated payroll 2024 - Total, $110,675,000

[Imarealperson]

Approximately how many JaCo voters make up this CCA HOA thing?

Related: did the streetcar have to pay stipends, etc to all of the (streetcar taxpaying) business they’ve disrupted. What did those guys get out of the streetcar deal?

[DColeKC]

I was on a call this morning with someone at the top of this. He feels like it’s trending to be a winning vote. However he also said there are other ways to get this done without the vote if they needed to pull that lever. Was adamant that Kansas City would not being losing either team. This is the site and they’re all committed to making it happen.

[Sani]

I was on a call this morning with someone at the top of this. He feels like it’s trending to be a winning vote. However he also said there are other ways to get this done without the vote if they needed to pull that lever. Was adamant that Kansas City would not being losing either team. This is the site and they’re all committed to making it happen.

Meanwhile, over on Fox News: Chiefs president says 'leaving Kansas City' is an 'option' amid stadium tax vote

I'm not giving Fox News my email address to read the whole article, so maybe — probably? — it's clickbait taken wildly out of context. But it has folks in r/StLouis talking.

[DColeKC]

I was on a call this morning with someone at the top of this. He feels like it’s trending to be a winning vote. However he also said there are other ways to get this done without the vote if they needed to pull that lever. Was adamant that Kansas City would not being losing either team. This is the site and they’re all committed to making it happen.

Meanwhile, over on Fox News: Chiefs president says 'leaving Kansas City' is an 'option' amid stadium tax vote

I'm not giving Fox News my email address to read the whole article, so maybe — probably? — it's clickbait taken wildly out of context. But it has folks in r/StLouis talking.

Yeah I think he is implying the Kansas side or leaving KCMO.

“I know that for us, the Chiefs, we'd have to look at all of our options,” Donovan said. Would those options include leaving Kansas City? “I think they'd have to include leaving Kansas City, but our goal here is that we want to stay here,” Donovan said. Its a stunning admission.

[UMKCroo]

During a conversation with Populous, I was told that while the current plan includes closing Oak, they are looking at several different options. I get the feeling they don't see it working without closing Oak though. Interesting news to me however, they claim Oak will remain open to pedestrians, including during games. I pushed them on that for clarification and they confirmed. Was this everyones assumption? Guess I missed that. Makes this way more palatable to me. I still have concerns about streetcar, but really there is just so much capacity. I think traffic ends up a non-issue as well.

[Highlander]

Because it cost 1/10th of what a new MLB stadium will cost. If they could build a new MlB stadium for under 150m I’m sure they’d not ask for a penny.

and I'm guessing the Current's P&L is even less than 1/10th of the royals.

The [NWSL] salary cap for the 2024 season will be $2,750,000 per team, up nearly 40% from a cap of $1,375,000 plus $600,000 in allocation money available to each team in 2023. Relatedly, teams can no longer purchase new allocation money and must use any remaining funds by the end of 2026.

Major League Baseball (MLB) does not have a hard salary cap, but it does use the Competitive Balance Tax (CBT), also known as the luxury tax, to limit big spenders. Clubs that exceed a predetermined payroll threshold are taxed on each dollar above the threshold. The tax rate increases based on the number of consecutive years a club has exceeded the threshold. In 2023, the threshold was $233 million. In 2024, the Dodgers are estimated to be over the fourth and highest threshold of $297 million

KC Royals estimated payroll 2024 - Total, $110,675,000

Not to mention the higher salaries of coaches and the cost of a good general manager. The Royals and the Current are two scales with orders of magnitude different $$ values on payroll, stadium cost, operating costs and management.

[beautyfromashes]

KC Current: zero incentives from city, county or state. Sold out the entire season and ticket prices starting at $150/ea. someone explain to me how $1.7B in incentives for the new Royals is a better deal than lowly women’s soccer?

Because it cost 1/10th of what a new MLB stadium will cost. If they could build a new MlB stadium for under 150m I’m sure they’d not ask for a penny.

Not to mention the Current is rolling high off the “first” this and first that. People are rightfully excited but will it last or will it quickly be mostly determined based on wins vs loses?

Right now, I’m not even sure if the Royals are going to contribute as much for their stadium as the KC Current spent on theirs.

[DColeKC]

KC Current: zero incentives from city, county or state. Sold out the entire season and ticket prices starting at $150/ea. someone explain to me how $1.7B in incentives for the new Royals is a better deal than lowly women’s soccer?

Because it cost 1/10th of what a new MLB stadium will cost. If they could build a new MlB stadium for under 150m I’m sure they’d not ask for a penny.

Not to mention the Current is rolling high off the “first” this and first that. People are rightfully excited but will it last or will it quickly be mostly determined based on wins vs loses?

Right now, I’m not even sure if the Royals are going to contribute as much for their stadium as the KC Current spent on theirs.

They’ve committed to buying the land and giving that to the county. They’ve committed to spending a billion dollars on the village portion.

[KCPowercat]

"committed"

[DColeKC]

"committed"

Yeah…… it’s part of the negotiation process before any kind of development agreement is reached. I know you all know this but you’re being very pessimistic. What do you want? A signed agreement they will spend a billion dollars before they even know how the stadium is going to be funded?

I understand the frustration with them but god damn.

[KCPowercat]

"committed"

Yeah…… it’s part of the negotiation process before any kind of development agreement is reached. I know you all know this but you’re being very pessimistic. What do you want? A signed agreement they will spend a billion dollars before they even know how the stadium is going to be funded?

I understand the frustration with them but god damn.

I didn't say they should have it signed now but let's not give them too much credit before it's actually done deal especially when you are trying to talk down to an actually built stadium that the owners put money behind w/o incentives. We have no idea if that "billion dollars" will ever actually show itself and in what form.

[dnweava]

During a conversation with Populous, I was told that while the current plan includes closing Oak, they are looking at several different options. I get the feeling they don't see it working without closing Oak though. Interesting news to me however, they claim Oak will remain open to pedestrians, including during games. I pushed them on that for clarification and they confirmed. Was this everyones assumption? Guess I missed that. Makes this way more palatable to me. I still have concerns about streetcar, but really there is just so much capacity. I think traffic ends up a non-issue as well.

Can't make it work = don't want to make it work IMO

Even if it is just pedestrian only on gamedays, I'd be fine with that, but it needs to be open to traffic most days. Plus it's a major emergency vehicle corridor. There is literally a fire station, hospital, and police station all within a block of Oak.