Downtown Baseball Stadium

[mean]

I can't escape the sunk cost fallacy here. I'm not saying we made a mistake 50 years ago, but if we did, is it the right choice to keep making it forever, every (less than) 20 years?

[WoodDraw]

One of the best campaigns we ever did was sprint center. It was paid for with a hotel and rental car tax.

Enterprise, based in stl, came out hard against it. Just went hard core anti-stl and it was super effective. you’ll still find people that won’t rent from them based on that campaign

The people that did the airport did a great job too, but I wasn’t involved at all.

There are ways to do these well.

[WoodDraw]

Does anyone here actually think the royals are going to spend $1 billion of their own money?

It’s completely made up.

100%. Now over what period of time, I don’t know. Cordish has held up their end of their master development agreement with no end in sight on expansion. Perhaps not at everyone’s preferred pace but the deal didn’t specify certain projects by certain dates. Ballpark Village got done. There are other public private partnerships where deals were executed.

We are talking about the Royals here. Not a proven land squatting developer. They may have no development history to look to but that’s better then a reputation of failed project one after another.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

The kc/cordish master development agreement was notoriously weak and this here makes it look like blood pact.

I really hope they try again with a little more effort.

[DColeKC]

Does anyone here actually think the royals are going to spend $1 billion of their own money?

It’s completely made up.

100%. Now over what period of time, I don’t know. Cordish has held up their end of their master development agreement with no end in sight on expansion. Perhaps not at everyone’s preferred pace but the deal didn’t specify certain projects by certain dates. Ballpark Village got done. There are other public private partnerships where deals were executed.

We are talking about the Royals here. Not a proven land squatting developer. They may have no development history to look to but that’s better then a reputation of failed project one after another.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

The kc/cordish master development agreement was notoriously weak and this here makes it look like blood pact.

I really hope they try again with a little more effort.

Time will tell. I just hope if it fails they actually try again and don’t simply take the easier route and abandon the downtown concept.

That’s the biggest risk here.

[DColeKC]

I can't escape the sunk cost fallacy here. I'm not saying we made a mistake 50 years ago, but if we did, is it the right choice to keep making it forever, every (less than) 20 years?

I don’t think we made a mistake. Hard to argue that these two sports teams haven’t done more for our cities reputation than just about anything else. “The city of Fountains” and arts scene isn’t doing anything for us. If you’re being honest, you’ve got to really try to find more than a few fountains and our jazz scene isn’t 1/10th what it was at its peak. BBQ has sustained so there’s that.

[WoodDraw]

100%. Now over what period of time, I don’t know. Cordish has held up their end of their master development agreement with no end in sight on expansion. Perhaps not at everyone’s preferred pace but the deal didn’t specify certain projects by certain dates. Ballpark Village got done. There are other public private partnerships where deals were executed.

We are talking about the Royals here. Not a proven land squatting developer. They may have no development history to look to but that’s better then a reputation of failed project one after another.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

The kc/cordish master development agreement was notoriously weak and this here makes it look like blood pact.

I really hope they try again with a little more effort.

Time will tell. I just hope if it fails they actually try again and don’t simply take the easier route and abandon the downtown concept.

That’s the biggest risk here.

There's also a risk no one wants to drive to Kansas for a baseball game 81 days a year.

[beautyfromashes]

I just hope if it fails they actually try again and don’t simply take the easier route and abandon the downtown concept.

That’s the biggest risk here.

Won’t happen. First, the Royals would be stupid to slight half their customers. Missouri side would boycott that stadium like crazy. Second, they’d have to wait for the current lease to expire and they know that staying at TSC is a money pit. This team is acting like they hold all the cards and that citizens are stupid. Downtown can stand on its own now. We don’t have to beg or take the shitty deal shoved in our face.

[DColeKC]

I just hope if it fails they actually try again and don’t simply take the easier route and abandon the downtown concept.

That’s the biggest risk here.

Won’t happen. First, the Royals would be stupid to slight half their customers. Missouri side would boycott that stadium like crazy. Second, they’d have to wait for the current lease to expire and they know that staying at TSC is a money pit. This team is acting like they hold all the cards and that citizens are stupid. Downtown can stand on its own now. We don’t have to beg or take the shitty deal shoved in our face.

Perhaps you’re right but I still don’t know why it’s a shitty deal. I understand the idea maybe we don’t have enough detail to properly evaluate the quality of the deal overall.

I’m honestly far more concerned about NKC but know Kansas is salivating too.

[DColeKC]

We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

The kc/cordish master development agreement was notoriously weak and this here makes it look like blood pact.

I really hope they try again with a little more effort.

Time will tell. I just hope if it fails they actually try again and don’t simply take the easier route and abandon the downtown concept.

That’s the biggest risk here.

There's also a risk no one wants to drive to Kansas for a baseball game 81 days a year.

Can’t agree more with you on that.

[beautyfromashes]

Perhaps you’re right but I still don’t know why it’s a shitty deal. I understand the idea maybe we don’t have enough detail to properly evaluate the quality of the deal overall.

I’m honestly far more concerned about NKC but know Kansas is salivating too.

Tell me what percentage of their own money the Royals will be spending on this development, rough number? NKC is less likely than Kansas.

[mean]

I can't escape the sunk cost fallacy here. I'm not saying we made a mistake 50 years ago, but if we did, is it the right choice to keep making it forever, every (less than) 20 years?

I don’t think we made a mistake. Hard to argue that these two sports teams haven’t done more for our cities reputation than just about anything else. “The city of Fountains” and arts scene isn’t doing anything for us. If you’re being honest, you’ve got to really try to find more than a few fountains and our jazz scene isn’t 1/10th what it was at its peak. BBQ has sustained so there’s that.

This type of thing makes me want to vote no even more. This makes it sound like an abusive relationship. "You'd be nothing without me! *smack* Now pay up or else!"

[Highlander]

One of the best campaigns we ever did was sprint center. It was paid for with a hotel and rental car tax.

Enterprise, based in stl, came out hard against it. Just went hard core anti-stl and it was super effective. you’ll still find people that won’t rent from them based on that campaign

The people that did the airport did a great job too, but I wasn’t involved at all.

There are ways to do these well.

Apples, oranges and avocados. The airport vote hinged simply on convincing the public that no taxes money would be used on the airport. The curmudgeons that wanted to stick with the old horseshoe terminals were proud and loud but relatively few.

Sprint Arena was sold on the basis that visitors and not Kansas Citians would pay for the arena via the hotel/car rental price. I wasn't that pleased with Enterprise either.

When I look at the various groups opposed to Royals Stadium, it would be a daunting task to figure out a campaign that would work. It would be like going to Truth Social and trying to convince people to vote for Biden. There's a perfect storm of people against this tax. First there's the people with a deep attachment for some to Royals Stadium (which is at least still functional as opposed to KCI's decrepit condition at the time of the vote) and many of those have a deeply seated fear of anything urban. Then there's the anti-tax people in the city many of whom who see this as a social justice issue and now the downtown residents that think this is a poor deal for the city or simply don't want the stadium in their backyard. Where do you start? How do you build a campaign in a month to address those myriad of issues.

It's now become such a complex issue that I think it would be best for the Royals to just take it off the ballot and try again next year when there has been more time to better disseminate information and come up with a better plan to sell the stadium. I think a lot of the opposition is intransigent and will never change their minds but there's enough that could be convinced that a new stadium is a good thing for the fan and the city. As it is, the vote will go forward, likely fail, and the city will miss a once in a generation opportunity and the stadium will end up in NKC or Kansas (or they will leave).

[GRID]

This is about downtown Kansas City finally knowing our worth. We don’t have to desperately take any deal brought to the table and deals have to be fair. We shouldn’t be negotiating from a place of weakness, like we did with Cordish and P&L.

I'm trying really hard to see downtown KC in the same way you guys see it. Downtown KC is still trying to get over the hump. Still. Today. Every single city in the entire country has seen at least as much downtown growth that KC has seen in the past 20 years, most a lot more.

In the past 20 years, there are a few new five over ones and a couple of new 12 story building in the Crossroads. Downtown has seen pretty much no new construction outside of the P&L District and even that area is not exactly boomtown adding a new 20 story building every five years. But the three Light buildings, H&R Block and the 1400 KC building would not be there if it were not for the Cordish deal.

So much of downtown, including the Crossroads, is still parking lots and barely used buildings. It's a harsh reality.

I can't even freaking imagine KC today had the city not made a deal with Cordish. I think you would be looking at the most stagnant major downtown in the country BY FAR except maybe Memphis?

I can see wanting to put the stadium in EV, but this save the crossroads thing has gone silly.

And nearly all the backlash is still on the Royals when it should be on the Chiefs. Good lord that was a slap in the face by the Hunts. I would almost vote no on this just based on the Chiefs alone. A 40 year tax for another basic renovation to Arrowhead is the dumbest thing ever.

I don't know if KC can even pull off a new stadium. Not like the renderings show anyway. That's my main issue with the Royals stadium.

I'm starting to care less and less about this. I'll be at opening day at Nats stadium, I have what I'm trying to get in KC in my backyard. I'm not sure why I care about KC this much anymore. It's exhausting. My only fear is the teams leaving or moving to Kansas, but that's probably several years out from being a real threat.

[WoodDraw]

One of the best campaigns we ever did was sprint center. It was paid for with a hotel and rental car tax.

Enterprise, based in stl, came out hard against it. Just went hard core anti-stl and it was super effective. you’ll still find people that won’t rent from them based on that campaign

The people that did the airport did a great job too, but I wasn’t involved at all.

There are ways to do these well.

Apples, oranges and avocados. The airport vote hinged simply on convincing the public that no taxes money would be used on the airport. The curmudgeons that wanted to stick with the old horseshoe terminals were proud and loud but relatively few.

Sprint Arena was sold on the basis that visitors and not Kansas Citians would pay for the arena via the hotel/car rental price. I wasn't that pleased with Enterprise either.

When I look at the various groups opposed to Royals Stadium, it would be a daunting task to figure out a campaign that would work. It would be like going to Truth Social and trying to convince people to vote for Biden. There's a perfect storm of people against this tax. First there's the people with a deep attachment for some to Royals Stadium (which is at least still functional as opposed to KCI's decrepit condition at the time of the vote) and many of those have a deeply seated fear of anything urban. Then there's the anti-tax people in the city many of whom who see this as a social justice issue and now the downtown residents that think this is a poor deal for the city or simply don't want the stadium in their backyard. Where do you start? How do you build a campaign in a month to address those myriad of issues.

It's now become such a complex issue that I think it would be best for the Royals to just take it off the ballot and try again next year when there has been more time to better disseminate information and come up with a better plan to sell the stadium. I think a lot of the opposition is intransigent and will never change their minds but there's enough that could be convinced that a new stadium is a good thing for the fan and the city. As it is, the vote will go forward, likely fail, and the city will miss a once in a generation opportunity and the stadium will end up in NKC or Kansas (or they will leave).

I agree they're all completely different. You kinda made my point better than me, the biggest challenge in a campaign is telling the story in a way voters connect with.

I think both teams have failed in that completely.

[Highlander]

One of the best campaigns we ever did was sprint center. It was paid for with a hotel and rental car tax.

Enterprise, based in stl, came out hard against it. Just went hard core anti-stl and it was super effective. you’ll still find people that won’t rent from them based on that campaign

The people that did the airport did a great job too, but I wasn’t involved at all.

There are ways to do these well.

Apples, oranges and avocados. The airport vote hinged simply on convincing the public that no taxes money would be used on the airport. The curmudgeons that wanted to stick with the old horseshoe terminals were proud and loud but relatively few.

Sprint Arena was sold on the basis that visitors and not Kansas Citians would pay for the arena via the hotel/car rental price. I wasn't that pleased with Enterprise either.

When I look at the various groups opposed to Royals Stadium, it would be a daunting task to figure out a campaign that would work. It would be like going to Truth Social and trying to convince people to vote for Biden. There's a perfect storm of people against this tax. First there's the people with a deep attachment for some to Royals Stadium (which is at least still functional as opposed to KCI's decrepit condition at the time of the vote) and many of those have a deeply seated fear of anything urban. Then there's the anti-tax people in the city many of whom who see this as a social justice issue and now the downtown residents that think this is a poor deal for the city or simply don't want the stadium in their backyard. Where do you start? How do you build a campaign in a month to address those myriad of issues.

It's now become such a complex issue that I think it would be best for the Royals to just take it off the ballot and try again next year when there has been more time to better disseminate information and come up with a better plan to sell the stadium. I think a lot of the opposition is intransigent and will never change their minds but there's enough that could be convinced that a new stadium is a good thing for the fan and the city. As it is, the vote will go forward, likely fail, and the city will miss a once in a generation opportunity and the stadium will end up in NKC or Kansas (or they will leave).

I agree they're all completely different. You kinda made my point better than me, the biggest challenge in a campaign is telling the story in a way voters connect with.

I think both teams have failed in that completely.

The one message that both teams seem to be getting across pretty well is that the status quo is not going to work going forward. It won't sway voters this time around but there will be a round 2 in some form and/or some other county.

[TheUrbanRoo]

If this thing fails it’s gonna because the Chiefs flopped. That’s who we were counting on to carry this.

[beautyfromashes]

This is about downtown Kansas City finally knowing our worth. We don’t have to desperately take any deal brought to the table and deals have to be fair. We shouldn’t be negotiating from a place of weakness, like we did with Cordish and P&L.

I'm trying really hard to see downtown KC in the same way you guys see it. Downtown KC is still trying to get over the hump. Still. Today. Every single city in the entire country has seen at least as much downtown growth that KC has seen in the past 20 years, most a lot more.

In the past 20 years, there are a few new five over ones and a couple of new 12 story building in the Crossroads. Downtown has seen pretty much no new construction outside of the P&L District and even that area is not exactly boomtown adding a new 20 story building every five years. But the three Light buildings, H&R Block and the 1400 KC building would not be there if it were not for the Cordish deal.

So much of downtown, including the Crossroads, is still parking lots and barely used buildings. It's a harsh reality.

I can't even freaking imagine KC today had the city not made a deal with Cordish. I think you would be looking at the most stagnant major downtown in the country BY FAR except maybe Memphis?

I can see wanting to put the stadium in EV, but this save the crossroads thing has gone silly.

And nearly all the backlash is still on the Royals when it should be on the Chiefs. Good lord that was a slap in the face by the Hunts. I would almost vote no on this just based on the Chiefs alone. A 40 year tax for another basic renovation to Arrowhead is the dumbest thing ever.

I don't know if KC can even pull off a new stadium. Not like the renderings show anyway. That's my main issue with the Royals stadium.

I'm starting to care less and less about this. I'll be at opening day at Nats stadium, I have what I'm trying to get in KC in my backyard. I'm not sure why I care about KC this much anymore. It's exhausting. My only fear is the teams leaving or moving to Kansas, but that's probably several years out from being a real threat.

My dad grew up a HUGE St. Louis Cardinals fan but switched to the Royals when he started a family here. I once asked him why he didn't still follow the Cardinals and he said, "You embrace the city you're in." I think it's fine if you've given up on Kansas City and are embracing a new place. If KC had what you wanted or could become what you wanted you would have stayed. But, there has been dramatic changes in our downtown. As someone who walks through often, it's not near the same. Performing arts center, streetcar, convention center hotel, dozens of loft conversions and now new builds, Sprint Center & P&L, national spotlights with the NFL draft and future World Cup, first woman-specific stadium in the world, etc. We're not DC, but I like where we're headed.

[KCPowercat]

This is about downtown Kansas City finally knowing our worth. We don’t have to desperately take any deal brought to the table and deals have to be fair. We shouldn’t be negotiating from a place of weakness, like we did with Cordish and P&L.

I'm trying really hard to see downtown KC in the same way you guys see it. Downtown KC is still trying to get over the hump. Still. Today. Every single city in the entire country has seen at least as much downtown growth that KC has seen in the past 20 years, most a lot more.

In the past 20 years, there are a few new five over ones and a couple of new 12 story building in the Crossroads. Downtown has seen pretty much no new construction outside of the P&L District and even that area is not exactly boomtown adding a new 20 story building every five years. But the three Light buildings, H&R Block and the 1400 KC building would not be there if it were not for the Cordish deal.

So much of downtown, including the Crossroads, is still parking lots and barely used buildings. It's a harsh reality.

I can't even freaking imagine KC today had the city not made a deal with Cordish. I think you would be looking at the most stagnant major downtown in the country BY FAR except maybe Memphis?

I can see wanting to put the stadium in EV, but this save the crossroads thing has gone silly.

And nearly all the backlash is still on the Royals when it should be on the Chiefs. Good lord that was a slap in the face by the Hunts. I would almost vote no on this just based on the Chiefs alone. A 40 year tax for another basic renovation to Arrowhead is the dumbest thing ever.

I don't know if KC can even pull off a new stadium. Not like the renderings show anyway. That's my main issue with the Royals stadium.

I'm starting to care less and less about this. I'll be at opening day at Nats stadium, I have what I'm trying to get in KC in my backyard. I'm not sure why I care about KC this much anymore. It's exhausting. My only fear is the teams leaving or moving to Kansas, but that's probably several years out from being a real threat.

No you won't, you can't quit us! I will say maybe judging KC on a reverse curve is a bit jarse. Those of us seeing it everyday feel pretty good about where we are and where we are going.

Comparing KC to DC is never going to end well. Different leagues.

[WoodDraw]

I can't and won't speak for the crossroads, but my issue was never save the art district.

My concern is that they don't own any land so a significant part of the royals contribution is going to go towards land acquisition. The ev was all banked.

I'm worried the areas that they don't get will not get developed, similar to what happened with performing arts center and Sprint center. Sit on it and make money from parking.

I'm a long time superter of cordish and the master development agreement. But I am getting uncomfortable with their influence on KC development, especially outside of the area they control.

The royals and chiefs both handled this horribly, but my concerns are more about the future neighborhood, not them, and I didn't get enough to reassure me.

Hope that clears my objections up

[dnweava]

This is about downtown Kansas City finally knowing our worth. We don’t have to desperately take any deal brought to the table and deals have to be fair. We shouldn’t be negotiating from a place of weakness, like we did with Cordish and P&L.

In the past 20 years, there are a few new five over ones and a couple of new 12 story building in the Crossroads. Downtown has seen pretty much no new construction outside of the P&L District and even that area is not exactly boomtown adding a new 20 story building every five years. But the three Light buildings, H&R Block and the 1400 KC building would not be there if it were not for the Cordish deal.

So much of downtown, including the Crossroads, is still parking lots and barely used buildings. It's a harsh reality.

I can't even freaking imagine KC today had the city not made a deal with Cordish. I think you would be looking at the most stagnant major downtown in the country BY FAR except maybe Memphis?

I can see wanting to put the stadium in EV, but this save the crossroads thing has gone silly.

Massively incorrect take...

Downtown has had an insane amount of construction downtown that didn't show up as new buildings in the skyline but were huge projects. There wasn't a need for new buildings 15 years ago as there were so many underused and vacant buildings. Now that those building have all be filled we are starting to see more and more new buildings.

Just for example, the commerce tower, flashcube, Lucas lofts, courthouse lofts, p&l tower, att building, etc. literally several high rise buildings worth of new apartments in every part of downtown that just didn't change the skyline so they are easily forgotten about and missed if you weren't paying attention.