5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

[Chris Stritzel]

Probably because they added another floor of parking after the ridiculous bitching by business owners.

[bricknose]

Probably because they added another floor of parking after the ridiculous bitching by business owners.

I just came across the KC Star article discussing this. Very similar to the Crossroads stadium discussion, there sounds to be concern about this development affecting the River Market’s businesses by removing needed parking (or more accurately, replacing with a garage that isn’t large enough to compensate for the new tenants) and that it will wreck the River Mqrket’s character by being a high-rise in a low-rise district.
https://amp.kansascity.com/news/busines ... 78270.html

Opponents questioned how many of the new parking spaces would actually be made available to the public. With only 198 spaces dedicated to the 300-unit building, Kyle Getz told the committee the project was at least 150 parking spaces short of what’s needed.

Aside from the parking, she criticized the modern design of the high-rise, which she says will “stick out like a sore thumb” in the historic neighborhood. She pointed to the apartments at 531 Grand as an example of new development that fits in with the existing character of the River Market.

What is the forum’s views on these sorts of concerns? I like the idea of Strong Towns, which means increasing density and embracing anti-car urban designs, but since the transformation to dense and walkable doesn’t happen all at once, how can places like the River Market be preserved and its businesses and distinct character not negatively impacted along the way?

[Chris Stritzel]

Here’s the problem I have with the complaints specifically put out there by the River Market business owners.

They’re complaining about losing a parking lot and demanded (and got) more parking in the new building that still won’t exist for 2 years (construction period). During that time frame, people who would’ve parked on that parking lot will have found a new spot to park and life would go on. Instead, the business owners demanded more and more parking and the developer caved and gave them that parking. Now the project has been significantly delayed to the point where I have a hard time even seeing it constructed now.

My belief is that if you’re solely relying on outsiders coming in to patronize your business, you’re doing it all wrong. Buildings like this one (City Harvest), Atlas 303, 3rd and Grand, Ashland, and the “Defeo” building will add hundreds of potential new customers within a stone’s throw of your business. When you have those hundreds of new residents, you should be supportive of any and every new residential project in your neighborhood. But if you’re fearful construction will kill your business, it’s just a projection that your business plan might be failing under current conditions and is solely your fault. If your business fails because of a building being built that would certainly lift up other businesses in the neighborhood, then a new business will come in and take your spot.

The circumstances in the Crossroads (building demolitions) are entirely different than the River Market (parking lot being replaced with new building) as well. In either case, there are growing pains that’ll come with neighborhoods growing up. It’s up to the business owners to adapt and change to evolve with the evolving City. We can’t remain stagnant to preserve every single business or quirk that our City has. It’ll make us far too weak in the long run, and that’s something we can’t afford.

[TheLastGentleman]

Half the historic stuff in river market was destroyed for parking, so I think any notion that we should be respecting surface parking in this district is patently absurd and disrespects the enormous architectural and historical damage inflicted on it by cars.

As for height, I don’t think it really determines the “character” of places. The street level is more important; making sure new buildings have ground level activation and making sure we don’t get landscapers in the heart of the district. They can be as tall as they want as long as they hit the ground appropriately

[GRID]

Do people in KC say the word "parking" more than people in any other place in the world? Serious question. Wish there was a way to find out.

[KCPowercat]

Do people in KC say the word "parking" more than people in any other place in the world? Serious question. Wish there was a way to find out.

It isn't "saying" but here is google search on it by city, looks like KC's the 49th most popular metro for it.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explor ... king&sni=3

[GRID]

Yeah people "search" for how to or where to or how much etc via google reddit etc and then go park or do whatever they are doing and then FUCKING MOVE ON WITH THEIR LIVES.

I mean, even I will do a quick search for parking before I go an event in the city to help making the process easier. But in no way does it wreck my day or change my plans.

As far as being totally obsessed with parking at every venue in a city that has more parking than just about any other city I have ever been to, KC has to take the cake. I literally don't think about parking unless I'm reading a social media post concerning KC.

To the OP.

The River Market area needs LESS parking, not more. People (non residents) should be nearly forced to park outside the River Market and take the tram or walk to it. Downtown just south of the RM is nothing but parking lots. Use them.

So sick of talking about parking. Come on KC get it together. (this post is not directed to people on this forum, I'm just venting).

[KCPowercat]

Grid you are the one talking about it. Lol

I have no idea if that's s good indicator I just found it s cool data point

[GRID]

Grid you are the one talking about it. Lol

I have no idea if that's s good indicator I just found it s cool data point

Again, not directed here.

[bricknose]

My belief is that if you’re solely relying on outsiders coming in to patronize your business, you’re doing it all wrong. Buildings like this one (City Harvest), Atlas 303, 3rd and Grand, Ashland, and the “Defeo” building will add hundreds of potential new customers within a stone’s throw of your business. When you have those hundreds of new residents, you should be supportive of any and every new residential project in your neighborhood. But if you’re fearful construction will kill your business, it’s just a projection that your business plan might be failing under current conditions and is solely your fault. If your business fails because of a building being built that would certainly lift up other businesses in the neighborhood, then a new business will come in and take your spot.

This makes sense at a glance, but I imagine that 300 new households don't necessarily make up for 150 existing parking spots, because not all of those people will shop locally, and their shopping needs will be limited to one or two visits per week, while a parking spot can be reused by many customers throughout the day. I have no clue how much density needs to be traded off to replace a parking spot, but I would assume it would be at least a 4:1 ratio. That is, for every 1 parking spot removed, you need 4 local households within walking distance to replace that activity (assuming it the business is busy). That number is out of my ass, but I know how often I shop for groceries, and I would not personally spend as much at the River Market than everyone else who may park in one of the River Market spots throughout the week, combined. Hell, it may be more like 16:1 now that I think about it.

The River Market area needs LESS parking, not more. People (non residents) should be nearly forced to park outside the River Market and take the tram or walk to it. Downtown just south of the RM is nothing but parking lots. Use them.

So sick of talking about parking. Come on KC get it together. (this post is not directed to people on this forum, I'm just venting).

I understand this point of view, and it makes sense. But on the other hand, people visiting the River Market are going grocery shopping. If you've got two reusable bags loaded down with fruits and vegetables, you don't want to walk very far lugging that around. If I buy a couple watermelons at the River Market, I'm not going to want to carry them very far. In the summertime I regularly buy a watermelon, two musk melons, and a dozen ears of sweet corn every week from late July to late August. Easy to do when I just carry them to and from my car. What's the realistic car-free urban equivalent of that? More frequent, smaller trips, I guess? That becomes complicated when farmer's markets are mostly open on weekends only, so selection pushes you to buy in bulk.

[KC_Ari]

Anecdotally as one person living in RM, I spend roughly $150-200 weekly at businesses in the neighborhood. Either directly in city market or nearby between eating/coffee and groceries. Much of that on 'off' days for most of those businesses, aka weekdays.

[FangKC]

When you downplay the number of households in the City Market as your measure, you are forgetting something. The City Market's current model has businesses making most of their money on the weekends and they think they need free parking for that. Having additional residents all week might be a better business model. Regular customers.

One also needs to look at this from another angle. When the parking lots are full around the City Market, and free, it encourages people to linger. There is no penalty. But it doesn't ensure the parkers are buyers. It also encourages people who cannot find parking to give up and not visit a business there. Just because free parking exists doesn't mean those who are parked are coming to your business. That makes the case for metered parking. It encourages turnover.

Let me use a restaurant as an example. The longer people sit chatting after eating reduces the amount of customer turnover. If a group sits for two hours at a table, the restaurant owner benefits less than when two groups use that table for an hour. The restaurant owner makes more money with the turnover of tables.

Another example is when there is an event on the weekend at P&L/T-Mobile Center, the Convention Center, Union Station/Crown Center/Penn Valley Park. Suburban drivers might park in City Market's parking lots and take the streetcar to the event.

The Case for Ending Free Parking

...
Another objection is that charging for parking would push retail business to the suburbs, where parking would be more likely to remain free. Again, true in certain cases. But not charging means that nearly every space downtown is filled nearly all the time. Not being able to park at all discourages shoppers even more than a meter would.
...

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/opin ... shoup.html

[FangKC]

I understand this point of view, and it makes sense. But on the other hand, people visiting the River Market are going grocery shopping. If you've got two reusable bags loaded down with fruits and vegetables, you don't want to walk very far lugging that around. If I buy a couple watermelons at the River Market, I'm not going to want to carry them very far. In the summertime I regularly buy a watermelon, two musk melons, and a dozen ears of sweet corn every week from late July to late August. Easy to do when I just carry them to and from my car. What's the realistic car-free urban equivalent of that? More frequent, smaller trips, I guess? That becomes complicated when farmer's markets are mostly open on weekends only, so selection pushes you to buy in bulk.

People who would do this type of shopping would buy a pull cart. One can even take those on the streetcar.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-Ad ... _EALw_wcB

[Cratedigger]

I understand this point of view, and it makes sense. But on the other hand, people visiting the River Market are going grocery shopping. If you've got two reusable bags loaded down with fruits and vegetables, you don't want to walk very far lugging that around. If I buy a couple watermelons at the River Market, I'm not going to want to carry them very far. In the summertime I regularly buy a watermelon, two musk melons, and a dozen ears of sweet corn every week from late July to late August. Easy to do when I just carry them to and from my car. What's the realistic car-free urban equivalent of that? More frequent, smaller trips, I guess? That becomes complicated when farmer's markets are mostly open on weekends only, so selection pushes you to buy in bulk.

People who would do this type of shopping would buy a pull cart. One can even take those on the streetcar.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-Ad ... _EALw_wcB

In my experience these are far more popular.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ozark-Trail- ... 1439438841

[FangKC]

Yes, that looks like it would hold more, and also keep things from getting crushed.

[dukuboy1]

Do people in KC say the word "parking" more than people in any other place in the world? Serious question. Wish there was a way to find out.

Well I’d say the US adopted car centric travel & designed city growth & planning around it when places like Europe had very few cars & used mass transit. We’ve been adapting to autos being our main means of transportation since the 1910’s when the model T was made to be affordable for all. The car provided a unique freedom and I would argue started a 2nd wave of Westward Expansion of sorts since the railroad, but this time we grew out of city populations to suburbs and such.

Really the bulk of your robust public transportation, subways, trains, buses etc. really only exist in larger metropolises on the East Coast; NYC, Philly, Boston, DC, etc. Outside of that Chicago is the best example of large city with robust transit. Other cities have transit like, Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, LA, SF, Seattle but for the most part they are all car centric cities. All those cities are spread out with enormous freeway systems & of course legendary traffic. Parking is on the minds of the citizens in those cities as well. They just do better jobs of forging ahead & not letting it drag things down. Sometimes they provide a solution, sometimes they don’t. In some cases they build what they will knowing others will look to capitalize on building parking or creating parking in the name of easy profits.

I suspect that will happen here in KC as well. It’s even happened in the Crossroads. Remember the gravel lot across the street, North of Grinders? I sure do & I know that within the 3 yrs or so the owner of that lot(s) decided to improve it a little & turn it into pay surface parking. So I’m confident there will be solutions

[taxi]

I know a restaurant owner in the RM and spoke to him right after the meters went in. He could care less about where his customers park but he was very concerned about his employees. The meters have time limits and they have to run out and feed them during their shift and can barely afford the cost, much less the price of a parking ticket. I never hear anyone talk about employee parking. It's an afterthought, much like low income housing.

[KCPowercat]

Employees (or anybody 6-10 hour parking) shouldn't be parking on the street

[KC_Ari]

I know a restaurant owner in the RM and spoke to him right after the meters went in. He could care less about where his customers park but he was very concerned about his employees. The meters have time limits and they have to run out and feed them during their shift and can barely afford the cost, much less the price of a parking ticket. I never hear anyone talk about employee parking. It's an afterthought, much like low income housing.

This seems like the employees fault. There is free lots just across the north loop that are rarely full, especially when employees would be starting a shift. If anything, employee vehicles should be banned directly next to businesses, it makes the lots directly adjacent seem more full to potential customers when the vehicles aren't moving for ~8 hours a day.

[kcjak]

I know a restaurant owner in the RM and spoke to him right after the meters went in. He could care less about where his customers park but he was very concerned about his employees. The meters have time limits and they have to run out and feed them during their shift and can barely afford the cost, much less the price of a parking ticket. I never hear anyone talk about employee parking. It's an afterthought, much like low income housing.

I feel like in other neighborhoods the restaurant owners work to help find solutions to employee parking. How are restaurants in the Crossroads handling it?