OFFICIAL - Wallstreet Tower (formerly US Bank Tower)

[herrfrank]

After more review, I think as long as the expansion "tanks" are still working, meaning some internally available voids, the freeze compaction risk to structural integrity is low. Of course, I make no guarantees.

I would be concerned about Gillum's participation in the built structure, just a few years before he famously short-cutted the "skywalks" at the Hyatt Regency. I want to avoid the many personal foibles of midcentury KC construction personalities, although I have heard stories for decades.

Harry Weese however was no dummy, and he built things with serious redundancy (look at the DC subway). He was an angry drunk, but not an idiot. We are 50 years on now, so, yes, a complete structural engineering analysis is both advisable and frankly necessary. I mostly live in Florida, and even with our "hands-off" state government, there are still enough professionals in Tallahassee who demanded engineering studies of every high-rise in the state after what happened in North Miami Beach.

From Weese's publicist in 1974 about this particular project, which btw is officially known as the Mercantile Bank Tower:

All columns will be filled with a solution of water and antifreeze which provides an advanced and novel means of
fire protection, the first time that such a
system has been used in Kansas City.
This water-filled-column method fire
protects not only the exposed surface,
but also the interior. The water-filled
columns - containing about 8,700 gallons of liquid - will reach to the steel
space truss approximately 60 ft above
the plaza. Each column will hold about
1,740 gallons of solution. To accommodate any volume change in the solution, an expansion tank with a piping
loop connecting the tops of the columns will be placed inside the steel
space truss which encloses the mechanical equipment floor.
"The tank will provide space for expansion of liquids in the columns in
hot weather - or in the unlikely event
of a fire - when the liquid can be expected to expand." points out Oan
Duncan, project engineer of Jack D.
Gillum & Associates, structural engineers on the project. "In case of fire
the exterior columns must continue to
provide structural support. They must,
therefore, be protected. Rather than
conventional fire protection - such as
cladding the entire column with steel
plate over a layer of fire-retardant material - the principals decided to fireproof the columns with water from
within. Not only was this an unusual -
and attractive - design and engineering solution, it was practical and economical.

[im2kull]

I can only imagine the lawsuits filed by family members of dead tenants, and adjacent building owners if the building toppled over. I guess the board wouldn't have to face that if they were all dead as well. This makes me wonder how the building's insurance company allowed them to go with the riskier option.

I don't think their insurance provider understands the problem. Their agent is Tim Presko in the Northland and their policy is a special form all risk policy through "Fireman's Fund Insurance Company". Their building replacement cost and coverage limit is listed at $52,458,000.. which seems awfully low. Unfortunately, I'm sure owners are being kept in the dark as to how underinsured they are. I would think a $200M replacement cost would be more appropriate for that steel heavy structure. $52M is laughable.

Hopefully we don't see a disaster and the resulting lawsuits filed. This is one opportunity we actually have to prevent disaster, given that it's entirely man-made and easily avoided. Hopefully someone will take the steps necessary to remove the bad actors from the process and safe this structure.

[im2kull]

After more review, I think as long as the expansion "tanks" are still working, meaning some internally available voids, the freeze compaction risk to structural integrity is low. Of course, I make no guarantees.

I would be concerned about Gillum's participation in the built structure, just a few years before he famously short-cutted the "skywalks" at the Hyatt Regency. I want to avoid the many personal foibles of midcentury KC construction personalities, although I have heard stories for decades.

Harry Weese however was no dummy, and he built things with serious redundancy (look at the DC subway). He was an angry drunk, but not an idiot. We are 50 years on now, so, yes, a complete structural engineering analysis is both advisable and frankly necessary. I mostly live in Florida, and even with our "hands-off" state government, there are still enough professionals in Tallahassee who demanded engineering studies of every high-rise in the state after what happened in North Miami Beach.

From Weese's publicist in 1974 about this particular project, which btw is officially known as the Mercantile Bank Tower:

All columns will be filled with a solution of water and antifreeze which provides an advanced and novel means of
fire protection, the first time that such a
system has been used in Kansas City.
This water-filled-column method fire
protects not only the exposed surface,
but also the interior. The water-filled
columns - containing about 8,700 gallons of liquid - will reach to the steel
space truss approximately 60 ft above
the plaza. Each column will hold about
1,740 gallons of solution. To accommodate any volume change in the solution, an expansion tank with a piping
loop connecting the tops of the columns will be placed inside the steel
space truss which encloses the mechanical equipment floor.
"The tank will provide space for expansion of liquids in the columns in
hot weather - or in the unlikely event
of a fire - when the liquid can be expected to expand." points out Oan
Duncan, project engineer of Jack D.
Gillum & Associates, structural engineers on the project. "In case of fire
the exterior columns must continue to
provide structural support. They must,
therefore, be protected. Rather than
conventional fire protection - such as
cladding the entire column with steel
plate over a layer of fire-retardant material - the principals decided to fireproof the columns with water from
within. Not only was this an unusual -
and attractive - design and engineering solution, it was practical and economical.

There are no internal voids or expansion tanks in the columns. There is a 500 gallon expansion tank in a conditioned space well above the columns, connected with LONG lengths of 3" copper tubing. It's a static system and the columns being directly exposed to the elements means the expansion tank would be quickly cut off and irrelevant if a portion of a column began to freeze. A frozen column is a single point of failure. I have a copy of the structural drawings and copies of three engineering studies. Each study has made observations that there is already a blockage in the columns and indications of variations in the as-built conditions from the design. There's considerable concern that a GCE special that cannot be fixed may actually exist. The indicators are certainly there. Weese was a great architect, but he unfortunately paired with the worst engineers in history on this project. Contact me if interested and I can share more.

[taxi]

Now I feel so petty, I was worried about my pipes freezing.

[herrfrank]

There are no internal voids or expansion tanks in the columns. There is a 500 gallon expansion tank in a conditioned space well above the columns, connected with LONG lengths of 3" copper tubing. It's a static system and the columns being directly exposed to the elements means the expansion tank would be quickly cut off and irrelevant if a portion of a column began to freeze. A frozen column is a single point of failure. I have a copy of the structural drawings and copies of three engineering studies. Each study has made observations that there is already a blockage in the columns and indications of variations in the as-built conditions from the design. There's considerable concern that a GCE special that cannot be fixed may actually exist. The indicators are certainly there. Weese was a great architect, but he unfortunately paired with the worst engineers in history on this project. Contact me if interested and I can share more.

So is the worry that a column would buckle? Because the frozen liquid would somehow affect a welded joint?

I might advise the residents to check into a hotel on Monday night in that case. Reading the documents again make it sound like they were (rightly) concerned by fire and the system was (over)engineered for that possibility. Extreme cold may not have been in the minds of the design team -- Weese lived in Atlanta I believe.

I seem to recall that KC cold-weather tolerances are supposed to be -25 Fahrenheit (I think I learned that years ago). This particular design is so unusual that probably no one has really "gamed" what would happen at -26.

Correction -- Weese was from Chicagoland and went to Cranbrook near Detroit. He definitely would have factored extreme cold into the original design. Of course the as-built situation, especially now with additional modifications, might present new problems.

[im2kull]

There are no internal voids or expansion tanks in the columns. There is a 500 gallon expansion tank in a conditioned space well above the columns, connected with LONG lengths of 3" copper tubing. It's a static system and the columns being directly exposed to the elements means the expansion tank would be quickly cut off and irrelevant if a portion of a column began to freeze. A frozen column is a single point of failure. I have a copy of the structural drawings and copies of three engineering studies. Each study has made observations that there is already a blockage in the columns and indications of variations in the as-built conditions from the design. There's considerable concern that a GCE special that cannot be fixed may actually exist. The indicators are certainly there. Weese was a great architect, but he unfortunately paired with the worst engineers in history on this project. Contact me if interested and I can share more.

So is the worry that a column would buckle? Because the frozen liquid would somehow affect a welded joint?

I might advise the residents to check into a hotel on Monday night in that case. Reading the documents again make it sound like they were (rightly) concerned by fire and the system was (over)engineered for that possibility. Extreme cold may not have been in the minds of the design team -- Weese lived in Atlanta I believe.

I seem to recall that KC cold-weather tolerances are supposed to be -25 Fahrenheit (I think I learned that years ago). This particular design is so unusual that probably no one has really "gamed" what would happen at -26.

Correction -- Weese was from Chicagoland and went to Cranbrook near Detroit. He definitely would have factored extreme cold into the original design. Of course the as-built situation, especially now with additional modifications, might present new problems.

Bingo.

The design and engineering recommendations are for a -30F tolerance. The HOA has disregarded everyone's recommendations and is now using a fluid with a -13F freeze point. If the fluid freezes tens of thousands of PSI of pressure will be exerted on the welded, box/cruciform columns from the inside out. These five columns support the entire upper 16 floors of the structure. A residential structure at that.

To compound the problem the HOA appears to have lied to the fluid manufacturer about having an engineers approval to get the manufacturer (who was hesitant and turned down the initial request) to ultimately sell them the fluid. The residents have been told that the column situation is resolved and that the building is compliant with the city. The city rebukes this. But, most residents have been brainwashed and believe the HOA is telling the truth. One unit owner even posted in this thread a few pages back, showcasing that sentiment. The HOA President went so far to even proclaim that an email from the city manager, Brian Platt, stating that the city found them out of compliance and ordered a resolution.. is false.

You can't make this stuff up. It's the movie "Don't look up" being played out in real life. See this page:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... tid=ZbWKwL

[im2kull]

There is no problem right now. Per the last post we've known about the issues for sometime and the city has been aware too but since there was a complaint filed they had to act. The city came out, we failed inspection, but not because the columns are unsafe per the fire department and city. It was related to the equipment not being in its original state that it was designed to be (not a big issue, and known by HOA, city, and FD).

We're now compliant with the city and not in violation. I'm a big supporter of local news but KMBC has a tendency to over do it on local issues, this is one of those times, and people have genuine concerns given what happened in FL.

Exhibit A of a unit owner drinking too much HOA Kool aid.

The city didn't fail the structure and doesn't still have an open violation for no reason. To think so is LAUGHABLE and irrational. This owner has obviously never spoken to the city or the fire department... As both directly contradict his parroting of the HOAs claims. The FD make it clear that the building is still not compliant, and that there's concerns about obstructions, the as-built conditions, the design, and more. Call KCFD and ask yourself. The Assistant Fire Marshal is more than willing to discuss.

At this point it's just embarrassing for these unit owners to be so blind and taken advantage of by the HOA.

See the emails in the linked FB page. I can't wait to see what else gets leaked on there.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... tid=ZbWKwL

[KCPowercat]

Imagine "knowing" all this and all you do about it is post it on an internet forum. That would be as bad as whomever signed off and improperly implemented the solution.

[im2kull]

Imagine "knowing" all this and all you do about it is post it on an internet forum. That would be as bad as whomever signed off and improperly implemented the solution.

Curious to hear what you're doing about it? I'm guessing you didn't view the photos on the linked page? The fire department is the AHJ and they're clearly involved given the contents of their leaked email being shared on the page. Multiple people know about it, despite the inaction.

It seems like everyone has been caught off guard and doesn't know what to do given the HOAs refusal to even acknowledge the problems with their own members, in stereotypical "Don't look up!" fashion.

That said, I don't think anyone on this forum is ready to be proactive and advocate for change. I wish I was wrong, but I don't see anyone volunteering to help get this straightened out. Even with the severity of the situation. So..

[FangKC]

I noticed on realtor.com that a couple of condo owners appear to be about to unload their apartments.

One is contingent and one is pending.

I wonder if the potential buyers have any idea about this issue?

[FangKC]

-35 wind chill at KCI this morning.

https://x.com/NWSKansasCity/status/1746 ... 55327?s=20

[KCPowercat]

Imagine "knowing" all this and all you do about it is post it on an internet forum. That would be as bad as whomever signed off and improperly implemented the solution.

Curious to hear what you're doing about it? I'm guessing you didn't view the photos on the linked page? The fire department is the AHJ and they're clearly involved given the contents of their leaked email being shared on the page. Multiple people know about it, despite the inaction.

It seems like everyone has been caught off guard and doesn't know what to do given the HOAs refusal to even acknowledge the problems with their own members, in stereotypical "Don't look up!" fashion.

That said, I don't think anyone on this forum is ready to be proactive and advocate for change. I wish I was wrong, but I don't see anyone volunteering to help get this straightened out. Even with the severity of the situation. So..

Yeah no I have no desire to click on your facebook links nor act upon your posts in any way. If the FD is really involved I think it's being properly handled. Your deepthroat of the situation seems either unnecessary or being done for some malice angle.

[KCPowercat]

I noticed on realtor.com that a couple of condo owners appear to be about to unload their apartments.

One is contingent and one is pending.

I wonder if the potential buyers have any idea about this issue?

There are always listings in this building, mostly due to the HOA costs that continue to skyrocket. I feel for those owners independent of whatever this is.

[im2kull]

I noticed on realtor.com that a couple of condo owners appear to be about to unload their apartments.

One is contingent and one is pending.

I wonder if the potential buyers have any idea about this issue?

I'm sure they have no idea.

I pulled the resale certs off MLS, and there's virtually no mention. At least not within the beginning and end of the actual, state law (RSMo 448) required resale certificate. One package has a short, one paragraph "we're searching for engineers with relevant knowledge of the system" statement buried (or hidden?) within the ~40 pages after the certificate. That statement appears to be inaccurate anyways, as one Overland Park firm has already completed two past studies and the HOA has received proposals from a Chicago engineering firm. So "searching for" seems to be a stretch. "Not willing to engage engineers further and pursue a fix" would be more accurate.

[im2kull]

Homeowner Associations seem to let power get to their heads. Both in condo buildings and subdivision, it's rough and full of massive oversteps.

Is it a cult?

There's a reason why I'm turned off by urban condos in particular. You're charged obscene amounts of money for a condo association fee, then they decide to pocket the money and do nothing of benefit to the property. In the case of Wall Street Tower, that's incredibly shocking and ridiculous. I guess living there means you give up your rights to Freedom of Speech online and your right to submit 311 requests to the city.

Yep. Sure sounds like a cult to me.

This dropped today.
https://fb.watch/pCClTT1bbm/?mibextid=ZbWKwL

You were spot on with that "pocket the money and do nothing" comment. I'm told the board is trying to build the reserves up though they haven't said why. I'm sure it's related to the conversation we're having here in which the columns have lingering issues, despite the HOAs instance to the contrary. Transparency seems completely foreign in their circle. The discussion in the video about hiding $200K in excess funds and manipulating the NOI to gain favor for a dues increase makes that pretty obvious. I'm told the HOA President even sent out a "We're poor, please approve the increase!" letter despite (per their own disclosure on the MLS) evidence that they have nearly $1M cash on hand and brought in nearly $2M this year.. Running a massive surplus even after transferring their normal allocation to reserves?

Make it make sense.

[brooksidebadgers]

Tim Presko.hahahahahah

[im2kull]

Tim Presko.hahahahahah

What's the significance? I'm dying to know now!

[HalcyonKC]

This dropped today.
https://fb.watch/pCClTT1bbm/?mibextid=ZbWKwL

You were spot on with that "pocket the money and do nothing" comment. I'm told the board is trying to build the reserves up though they haven't said why. I'm sure it's related to the conversation we're having here in which the columns have lingering issues, despite the HOAs instance to the contrary. Transparency seems completely foreign in their circle. The discussion in the video about hiding $200K in excess funds and manipulating the NOI to gain favor for a dues increase makes that pretty obvious. I'm told the HOA President even sent out a "We're poor, please approve the increase!" letter despite (per their own disclosure on the MLS) evidence that they have nearly $1M cash on hand and brought in nearly $2M this year.. Running a massive surplus even after transferring their normal allocation to reserves?

Make it make sense.

If the management company has been with the property for any length of time, they'll likely have recommended (and hopefully completed) a reserve fund study which they'll then tweak and renew from time to time. So if you're in year 15 of using some piece of capital equipment that has a life expectancy of 25 years, you know to save 1/10 of the projected cost of replacing that equipment for the next 10 years otherwise risk hitting your members with a special assessment for 100% of the cost when it breaks. And yet you don't truly know if it will crap out exactly at the 25 year mark, it might be sooner. So a conservative reserve fund might even err on the high side to try and avoid surprise special assessments. Although, human nature is to kick the can. So what's your reserve fund study say, if one exists? Do you have access to it? Is the "normal allocation" actually enough?

[im2kull]

This dropped today.
https://fb.watch/pCClTT1bbm/?mibextid=ZbWKwL

You were spot on with that "pocket the money and do nothing" comment. I'm told the board is trying to build the reserves up though they haven't said why. I'm sure it's related to the conversation we're having here in which the columns have lingering issues, despite the HOAs instance to the contrary. Transparency seems completely foreign in their circle. The discussion in the video about hiding $200K in excess funds and manipulating the NOI to gain favor for a dues increase makes that pretty obvious. I'm told the HOA President even sent out a "We're poor, please approve the increase!" letter despite (per their own disclosure on the MLS) evidence that they have nearly $1M cash on hand and brought in nearly $2M this year.. Running a massive surplus even after transferring their normal allocation to reserves?

Make it make sense.

If the management company has been with the property for any length of time, they'll likely have recommended (and hopefully completed) a reserve fund study which they'll then tweak and renew from time to time. So if you're in year 15 of using some piece of capital equipment that has a life expectancy of 25 years, you know to save 1/10 of the projected cost of replacing that equipment for the next 10 years otherwise risk hitting your members with a special assessment for 100% of the cost when it breaks. And yet you don't truly know if it will crap out exactly at the 25 year mark, it might be sooner. So a conservative reserve fund might even err on the high side to try and avoid surprise special assessments. Although, human nature is to kick the can. So what's your reserve fund study say, if one exists? Do you have access to it? Is the "normal allocation" actually enough?

I don't think this is a simple instance of the HOA making good decisions that folks just don't understand because of the context. There's something awry. Or criminal. Or both.

Reserve studies are done routinely for WST. The most recent on the MLS looks to be from 2021. It shows that they should have contributed about $150,000 to the reserve with a beginning of year 24 balance of $80K, EOY $400K. Currently the reserves have some $500K.. so 5x the recommendation, with almost a million being contributed over the last year, 2023. They're transferring massive amounts from the operating fund to the reserves. Not sure why. Probably to do exactly what the video mentions and mislead folks about the status of the Operating funds (saying it's low to get a dues increase passed).

[KCPowercat]

Take this internal resident vs HOA drama to your next meeting, this is silly on here. There is nothing crimsl about moving more funds to your reserve fund jfc