Downtown Baseball Stadium

[bhedges1987]

instead of the location, I'd like to discuss the design. So populous is working on it I guess? 95% of their stadiums are boring, generic modern spaceships. They designed Miami and Atlanta's baseball stadiums which are both trash, but they also did Minneapolis and and New Yankee which are both great.

My ideal stadium would be Target field but with Art Deco and Beaux arts elements. I really like Target's interior and size which fits in it's urban footprint and isn't just a generic symmetrical ballpark, but something like Yankee stadiums exterior with it's classic design. KC has so much great Art Deco/Beaux arts buildings and it's a travesty that it doesn't get the love it deserves. Between Union Station, Muni arena, P&L tower, Liberty memorial, and City hall, we have some of the most underrated buildings in the entire country and it would be amazing to complement with a stadium that has some of those beautiful elements. The world doesn't need another stadium that looks like it belongs in a suburban office park.

I'd also hope we go for a right sized stadium that we can fill on a regular basis but design it for temp seating for season openers and playoffs and such. I don't know why we have never seen this in baseball, but I think retractable/temp seats make so much sense. Have something like 32k permanent seats, and have like a party deck that can have retractable or portable bleachers to increase capacity when needed like how Tampa Bucs had temps seats for the Brady years or Arizona Cardinals fills in the endzone with extra seats for superbowls. But design the area so it looks good as a party deck, unlike the Arizona endzone which looks absolutely terrible when the temp seats aren't there.


Also, another crazy idea, use the Buck O'Neil bridge in the stadium since MoDot is currently trying to give it away. Could use it as a roof structure/big arch over the main entrance, or like part of the roof structure over some of the seats.

I agree. The ugly space ship stadiums are awful looking. Arrowhead looks like trash now, soldier field, all this stuff covered in modern glass I just don’t like.

Love the look of Yankees or Camden yards.

[DColeKC]

instead of the location, I'd like to discuss the design. So populous is working on it I guess? 95% of their stadiums are boring, generic modern spaceships. They designed Miami and Atlanta's baseball stadiums which are both trash, but they also did Minneapolis and and New Yankee which are both great.

My ideal stadium would be Target field but with Art Deco and Beaux arts elements. I really like Target's interior and size which fits in it's urban footprint and isn't just a generic symmetrical ballpark, but something like Yankee stadiums exterior with it's classic design. KC has so much great Art Deco/Beaux arts buildings and it's a travesty that it doesn't get the love it deserves. Between Union Station, Muni arena, P&L tower, Liberty memorial, and City hall, we have some of the most underrated buildings in the entire country and it would be amazing to complement with a stadium that has some of those beautiful elements. The world doesn't need another stadium that looks like it belongs in a suburban office park.

I'd also hope we go for a right sized stadium that we can fill on a regular basis but design it for temp seating for season openers and playoffs and such. I don't know why we have never seen this in baseball, but I think retractable/temp seats make so much sense. Have something like 32k permanent seats, and have like a party deck that can have retractable or portable bleachers to increase capacity when needed like how Tampa Bucs had temps seats for the Brady years or Arizona Cardinals fills in the endzone with extra seats for superbowls. But design the area so it looks good as a party deck, unlike the Arizona endzone which looks absolutely terrible when the temp seats aren't there.


Also, another crazy idea, use the Buck O'Neil bridge in the stadium since MoDot is currently trying to give it away. Could use it as a roof structure/big arch over the main entrance, or like part of the roof structure over some of the seats.

Original indication was something more on the modern side but that was when they were building in East Village and not trying to become part of an existing fabric. I too would love to see a more classic exterior that feels like it's been in the Crossroads forever.

They won't build anything over 32,000 seats.

[dnweava]

instead of the location, I'd like to discuss the design. So populous is working on it I guess? 95% of their stadiums are boring, generic modern spaceships. They designed Miami and Atlanta's baseball stadiums which are both trash, but they also did Minneapolis and and New Yankee which are both great.

My ideal stadium would be Target field but with Art Deco and Beaux arts elements. I really like Target's interior and size which fits in it's urban footprint and isn't just a generic symmetrical ballpark, but something like Yankee stadiums exterior with it's classic design. KC has so much great Art Deco/Beaux arts buildings and it's a travesty that it doesn't get the love it deserves. Between Union Station, Muni arena, P&L tower, Liberty memorial, and City hall, we have some of the most underrated buildings in the entire country and it would be amazing to complement with a stadium that has some of those beautiful elements. The world doesn't need another stadium that looks like it belongs in a suburban office park.

I'd also hope we go for a right sized stadium that we can fill on a regular basis but design it for temp seating for season openers and playoffs and such. I don't know why we have never seen this in baseball, but I think retractable/temp seats make so much sense. Have something like 32k permanent seats, and have like a party deck that can have retractable or portable bleachers to increase capacity when needed like how Tampa Bucs had temps seats for the Brady years or Arizona Cardinals fills in the endzone with extra seats for superbowls. But design the area so it looks good as a party deck, unlike the Arizona endzone which looks absolutely terrible when the temp seats aren't there.


Also, another crazy idea, use the Buck O'Neil bridge in the stadium since MoDot is currently trying to give it away. Could use it as a roof structure/big arch over the main entrance, or like part of the roof structure over some of the seats.

Original indication was something more on the modern side but that was when they were building in East Village and not trying to become part of an existing fabric. I too would love to see a more classic exterior that feels like it's been in the Crossroads forever.

They won't build anything over 32,000 seats.

You seemingly have connections... make it happen!

[bspecht]

I'm starting to find it shocking that a few of you on here, a development forum, are pushing for suburban type, decentralized development simply because you want a hole filled.

Spreading out the development does a few things.
1. Lowers density which can result in lower population density and maybe create less congestion. We don't have a congestion issue as is.
2. Creates a car-friendly, if not car-centric environment.
3. Increases infrastructure costs as it needs more of everything. Roads, utilities and services.

By placing things more closely together and taking advantage of existing momentum, you have so many advantages. Most of which I've already mentioned but a few more.
1.Infrastructure efficiencies.
2. Better access to public transpiration.
3. Economic benefits by concentrating development a central area, stimulating economic activity and helping create a vibrant urban core with diverse businesses.

There is a reason the city is willing to financially back only one site at this time.

bro didn't really just give us an urbanism 101

Impressively false narrative. There are benefits to both sites (Q just said so himself) and EV wouldn't be anything near suburban. Come on.

[GRID]

instead of the location, I'd like to discuss the design. So populous is working on it I guess? 95% of their stadiums are boring, generic modern spaceships. To be fair, I guess that's the aesthetic most soccer teams want right now, but the exterior of the new Bills stadium replaced the whales in my nightmares it's so bad... They designed Miami and Atlanta's baseball stadiums which are both trash, but they also did Minneapolis and and New Yankee which are both great.

My ideal stadium would be Target field but with Art Deco and Beaux arts elements. I really like Target's interior and size which fits in it's urban footprint and isn't just a generic symmetrical ballpark, but something like Yankee stadiums exterior with it's classic design. KC has so much great Art Deco/Beaux arts buildings and it's a travesty that it doesn't get the love it deserves. Between Union Station, Muni arena, P&L tower, Liberty memorial, and City hall, we have some of the most underrated buildings in the entire country and it would be amazing to complement with a stadium that has some of those beautiful elements. The world doesn't need another stadium that looks like it belongs in a suburban office park.

I'd also hope we go for a right sized stadium that we can fill on a regular basis but design it for temp seating for season openers and playoffs and such. I don't know why we have never seen this in baseball, but I think retractable/temp seats make so much sense. Have something like 32k permanent seats, and have like a party deck that can have retractable or portable bleachers to increase capacity when needed like how Tampa Bucs had temps seats for the Brady years or Arizona Cardinals fills in the endzone with extra seats for superbowls. But design the area so it looks good as a party deck, unlike the Arizona endzone which looks absolutely terrible when the temp seats aren't there.


Also, another crazy idea, use the Buck O'Neil bridge in the stadium since MoDot is currently trying to give it away. Could use it as a roof structure/big arch over the main entrance, or like part of the roof structure over some of the seats.

Agree with all of this. Re-using the Broadway Bridge could be interesting.

[Imarealperson]

instead of the location, I'd like to discuss the design. So populous is working on it I guess? 95% of their stadiums are boring, generic modern spaceships. They designed Miami and Atlanta's baseball stadiums which are both trash, but they also did Minneapolis and and New Yankee which are both great.

My ideal stadium would be Target field but with Art Deco and Beaux arts elements. I really like Target's interior and size which fits in it's urban footprint and isn't just a generic symmetrical ballpark, but something like Yankee stadiums exterior with it's classic design. KC has so much great Art Deco/Beaux arts buildings and it's a travesty that it doesn't get the love it deserves. Between Union Station, Muni arena, P&L tower, Liberty memorial, and City hall, we have some of the most underrated buildings in the entire country and it would be amazing to complement with a stadium that has some of those beautiful elements. The world doesn't need another stadium that looks like it belongs in a suburban office park.

I'd also hope we go for a right sized stadium that we can fill on a regular basis but design it for temp seating for season openers and playoffs and such. I don't know why we have never seen this in baseball, but I think retractable/temp seats make so much sense. Have something like 32k permanent seats, and have like a party deck that can have retractable or portable bleachers to increase capacity when needed like how Tampa Bucs had temps seats for the Brady years or Arizona Cardinals fills in the endzone with extra seats for superbowls. But design the area so it looks good as a party deck, unlike the Arizona endzone which looks absolutely terrible when the temp seats aren't there.


Also, another crazy idea, use the Buck O'Neil bridge in the stadium since MoDot is currently trying to give it away. Could use it as a roof structure/big arch over the main entrance, or like part of the roof structure over some of the seats.

Original indication was something more on the modern side but that was when they were building in East Village and not trying to become part of an existing fabric. I too would love to see a more classic exterior that feels like it's been in the Crossroads forever.

They won't build anything over 32,000 seats.

The great thing about this is it could be literally anything because there isn’t anything in that part of the crossroads that looks like it’s been there forever. Presently the most iconic thing down there is that substation at 18th and Cherry.

[beautyfromashes]

instead of the location, I'd like to discuss the design.

I'd love some art nouveau/deco style as well. A compliment to the style of the P&L building would be excellent. I wish more some of this had been done in the district but it is super expensive to do. It would make a Kansas City stadium super unique. There are very few stadiums that have this style anymore. There are several in South America. Europe has a few (Arsenal Stadium comes to mind from ones I've visited), some German I can't remember exactly where. Stadio Olimpico (before renovation) in Rome might be considered this a little. Most are more minimalistic than true deco style. Again, it takes a lot of money to make a large building a work of art.

[mourban]

I haven’t seen anyone mention the time it will take to complete an east village “village” or the risk a fully developed EV site could pose to P&L.

Using Busch 3 in St Louis as an example, the new stadium opened in 2006. Ballpark Village opened in 2014… 8 years later. One Cardinal Way didn’t open until 2020! Almost 14 years later… and I’d argue BPV still isn’t really finished today. There should be several more buildings added by this point.

So the development took a long time. And it also had the effect of taking business from elsewhere downtown like Washington Avenue. While I didn’t think it would matter that much at the time, I think it is now fair to say BPV has hurt a lot of the organic type of businesses that people here want to see preserved in the Crossroads.

In KC, the East Village site will most likely take years to develop simply because there is not much there right now. The site could work, but it will be too tempting for the landowners to just collect game day parking revenue and let those sites sit vacant for years.

But if the East Village Village succeeds, the owners may build something that ends up sucking the life and attention from P&L permanently, which would pose a lot of risk to the City.

Instead, East Village could be the next Beacon Hill or Union Hill once people stop land banking in hopes of luring the new stadium there. Let that place become a neighborhood.

Meanwhile, the East Crossroads block can be ready on day one and the businesses there will definitely benefit from the baseball crowd. The new stadium would integrate with many of the assets already in place in downtown KC like the 670 lid, P&L and the streetcar, and sales and property taxes in the area should increase to help pay for those things.

I know many people here believe in Strong Towns, and I understand that logic in criticizing the crossroads site but the EV village is absolutely not an example of Strong Town development.

Tearing down the KC Star building and having the smaller stadium between Grand and Oak could actually help preserve the neighborhood. As of now, the KC Star building is a giant impenetrable dead space surrounded by rarely used parking. The neighborhood is succeeding in spite of the KC Star building, so it seems sensible to tear it down in favor of better activated space.

If the KC Star building ends up being preserved I hope it is remodeled to activate the street level. It would really be a mistake to keep that building and not remodel its ground floor to integrate it into the neighborhood. I also hope it is programmed to complement P&L and not to take business from it.

[GRID]

A couple of things I haven’t seen anyone mention in all the back and forth relate to the time it will take to complete an east village “village” or the risk a fully developed EV site could pose to P&L.

I have mentioned it many times and I think a couple of others have as well. It's a real issue. Even at full build out, you are not going to really have what you already will have in a crossroads location. But how long will it take to build out the east village? It's taken 16 years to open three 300 unit towers in the P&L district and they were gifted the most expensive part (the parking garages).

A stadium could open in the east crossroads and blend into the city's urban fabric right away. A full build out of planned development is not near as critical to the success of the stadium.

On a side note. I know it's been mentioned here before, but if the Star building does stay, I think the best use for it would be an indoor urban market. It could even be part urban market, part big box retail. It seems like downtown KC is under retailed and most residents drive to inner suburbs to shop. So it could work. But tearing it down is probably what will happen.

[KCPowercat]

Putting this in the EV will do exactly what everybody hating on what the east crossroads current situation wants. It will let that area develop even more. Much more that dropping a huge empty 2/3 of the year stadium will.

Building in EV is fleshing out our downtown and making it more dense. Crossroads site does the opposite

[Anthony_Hugo98]

In KC, the East Village site will most likely take years to develop simply because there is not much there right now. The site could work, but it will be too tempting for the landowners to just collect game day parking revenue and let those sites sit vacant for years.

I’m not sure that would at all be the case, as they’d only generate a minor profit in game days, whereas developing those parcels, which would have high demand regardless of use, would provide a LARGE amount of revenue regardless of time of year. I don’t think a team looking to expand their revenue streams and grow their coffers would sit on land and use it as a quarter year parking lot…

[mourban]

[quote=mourban post_id=668206 time=<a href="tel:1705032295">1705032295</a> user_id=2649]
In KC, the East Village site will most likely take years to develop simply because there is not much there right now. The site could work, but it will be too tempting for the landowners to just collect game day parking revenue and let those sites sit vacant for years.

I’m not sure that would at all be the case, as they’d only generate a minor profit in game days, whereas developing those parcels, which would have high demand regardless of use, would provide a LARGE amount of revenue regardless of time of year. I don’t think a team looking to expand their revenue streams and grow their coffers would sit on land and use it as a quarter year parking lot…
[/quote]

They also don’t want to lose a bunch of money, and they are sitting on a cash cow asset in the form of a MLB team without doing anything. Unless the City forces their hand I’d bet the EV site sits undeveloped for a fairly long time after a stadium is built there.

I’d like to be proven wrong though!

[smh]

I haven’t seen anyone mention the time it will take to complete an east village “village” or the risk a fully developed EV site could pose to P&L.

Using Busch 3 in St Louis as an example, the new stadium opened in 2006. Ballpark Village opened in 2014… 8 years later. One Cardinal Way didn’t open until 2020! Almost 14 years later… and I’d argue BPV still isn’t really finished today. There should be several more buildings added by this point.

So the development took a long time. And it also had the effect of taking business from elsewhere downtown like Washington Avenue. While I didn’t think it would matter that much at the time, I think it is now fair to say BPV has hurt a lot of the organic type of businesses that people here want to see preserved in the Crossroads.

In KC, the East Village site will most likely take years to develop simply because there is not much there right now. The site could work, but it will be too tempting for the landowners to just collect game day parking revenue and let those sites sit vacant for years.

But if the East Village Village succeeds, the owners may build something that ends up sucking the life and attention from P&L permanently, which would pose a lot of risk to the City.

Instead, East Village could be the next Beacon Hill or Union Hill once people stop land banking in hopes of luring the new stadium there. Let that place become a neighborhood.

Meanwhile, the East Crossroads block can be ready on day one and the businesses there will definitely benefit from the baseball crowd. The new stadium would integrate with many of the assets already in place in downtown KC like the 670 lid, P&L and the streetcar, and sales and property taxes in the area should increase to help pay for those things.

I know many people here believe in Strong Towns, and I understand that logic in criticizing the crossroads site but the EV village is absolutely not an example of Strong Town development.

Tearing down the KC Star building and having the smaller stadium between Grand and Oak could actually help preserve the neighborhood. As of now, the KC Star building is a giant impenetrable dead space surrounded by rarely used parking. The neighborhood is succeeding in spite of the KC Star building, so it seems sensible to tear it down in favor of better activated space.

If the KC Star building ends up being preserved I hope it is remodeled to activate the street level. It would really be a mistake to keep that building and not remodel its ground floor to integrate it into the neighborhood. I also hope it is programmed to complement P&L and not to take business from it.

Great points. Have you really been lurking here for 14 years?

[taxi]

I try to stay out of this, but I guess I can't help myself. Let's look at the most likely scenario, if "they" choose EC...

The public (county voters) is already on the fence about a new stadium and extension of sales tax;
There will be the use of eminent domain or, at the very least, the threat of it. That is incredibly unpopular and it could tie things up for a very long time. Despite what DCole and Trump think, it is not all about the money. These are people's lives and they may not be motivated by so-called just compensation. Maybe a property owner wants to sell, maybe they don't – that is their right, one that is protected by law and the constitution. Maybe a business wants to relocate, maybe they don't. If the ones that don't raise a stink, and that stink will be legitimate no matter what their reasons are, it will sour the public sentiment even more. The press will love their story, as they should, and it will kill this deal.

Eminent domain has been used so nefariously in the past that it rightly has a serious stigma. It should only be used for the public good and a baseball stadium, no matter how you slice it, does not fit that bill. DCole, do not argue this one. Your definition of public good is a perfect example of corporate greed and capitalism run amok, under the guise of "what's best for downtown."

[mourban]

[/quote] Great points. Have you really been lurking here for 14 years?
[/quote]

Ha! Just found my old account info, but actually, yes!

[TheUrbanRoo]

Putting this in the EV will do exactly what everybody hating on what the east crossroads current situation wants. It will let that area develop even more. Much more that dropping a huge empty 2/3 of the year stadium will.

Building in EV is fleshing out our downtown and making it more dense. Crossroads site does the opposite

I keep hearing this and don’t understand any of the logic of it regarding the Crossroads

[grovester]

Great points. Have you really been lurking here for 14 years?
[/quote]

Ha! Just found my old account info, but actually, yes!
[/quote]

That is some serious self-control!

[DColeKC]

I'm starting to find it shocking that a few of you on here, a development forum, are pushing for suburban type, decentralized development simply because you want a hole filled.

Spreading out the development does a few things.
1. Lowers density which can result in lower population density and maybe create less congestion. We don't have a congestion issue as is.
2. Creates a car-friendly, if not car-centric environment.
3. Increases infrastructure costs as it needs more of everything. Roads, utilities and services.

By placing things more closely together and taking advantage of existing momentum, you have so many advantages. Most of which I've already mentioned but a few more.
1.Infrastructure efficiencies.
2. Better access to public transpiration.
3. Economic benefits by concentrating development a central area, stimulating economic activity and helping create a vibrant urban core with diverse businesses.

There is a reason the city is willing to financially back only one site at this time.

bro didn't really just give us an urbanism 101

Impressively false narrative. There are benefits to both sites (Q just said so himself) and EV wouldn't be anything near suburban. Come on.

Yeah "bro"... Felt a few on here could maybe get back to the basics.

I've never said there's no benefits to East Village, there's just not as many as East Crossroads.

The concept of spreading out development simply to fill up empty space is in fact, a very suburban frame of mind.

[DColeKC]

I haven’t seen anyone mention the time it will take to complete an east village “village” or the risk a fully developed EV site could pose to P&L.

Using Busch 3 in St Louis as an example, the new stadium opened in 2006. Ballpark Village opened in 2014… 8 years later. One Cardinal Way didn’t open until 2020! Almost 14 years later… and I’d argue BPV still isn’t really finished today. There should be several more buildings added by this point.

So the development took a long time. And it also had the effect of taking business from elsewhere downtown like Washington Avenue. While I didn’t think it would matter that much at the time, I think it is now fair to say BPV has hurt a lot of the organic type of businesses that people here want to see preserved in the Crossroads.

In KC, the East Village site will most likely take years to develop simply because there is not much there right now. The site could work, but it will be too tempting for the landowners to just collect game day parking revenue and let those sites sit vacant for years.

But if the East Village Village succeeds, the owners may build something that ends up sucking the life and attention from P&L permanently, which would pose a lot of risk to the City.

Instead, East Village could be the next Beacon Hill or Union Hill once people stop land banking in hopes of luring the new stadium there. Let that place become a neighborhood.

Meanwhile, the East Crossroads block can be ready on day one and the businesses there will definitely benefit from the baseball crowd. The new stadium would integrate with many of the assets already in place in downtown KC like the 670 lid, P&L and the streetcar, and sales and property taxes in the area should increase to help pay for those things.

I know many people here believe in Strong Towns, and I understand that logic in criticizing the crossroads site but the EV village is absolutely not an example of Strong Town development.

Tearing down the KC Star building and having the smaller stadium between Grand and Oak could actually help preserve the neighborhood. As of now, the KC Star building is a giant impenetrable dead space surrounded by rarely used parking. The neighborhood is succeeding in spite of the KC Star building, so it seems sensible to tear it down in favor of better activated space.

If the KC Star building ends up being preserved I hope it is remodeled to activate the street level. It would really be a mistake to keep that building and not remodel its ground floor to integrate it into the neighborhood. I also hope it is programmed to complement P&L and not to take business from it.

Well said and great point on BPV in St Louis. Obviously there was a major recession right when the stadium was nearing completion, but it took a long time to get to where it is now. You're also correct that it's not done, they have plans for more residential towers but downtown St Louis continues to struggle in comparison to Kansas City.

I want this all to come together quickly and you, along with GRID have pointed out correctly that East Village will be a 15 year project before completion. It will be a half stadium and have surface parking lots for a decade plus.

[DColeKC]

Putting this in the EV will do exactly what everybody hating on what the east crossroads current situation wants. It will let that area develop even more. Much more that dropping a huge empty 2/3 of the year stadium will.

Building in EV is fleshing out our downtown and making it more dense. Crossroads site does the opposite

Why do you keep pushing this false information about it being empty 2/3 year? The ground level will feature retail that's open all year long. The interior will feature amenities and spaces that will be used all year round.

And once more, it's not about how many games there are a year, it's about how many people it draws to the area. Did you know that if a business is open 8am to 5pm, they're only open 1/4th of the year?