Downtown Baseball Stadium

[GRID]

I’d be fine if they took the concept from the East Village Cherry Street elevation and applied it to the Grand facing side. I also hope that a Crossroads Ballpark blends classic design with modern. Not as modern as they wanted in East Village, but not old looking like Busch.

Nice to see not everybody is totally against the Crossroads site. I think the plan all along was to have the stadium activated at the street. Not sure how that would work in the isolated EV location where there never will be a true neighborhood surrounding it, but it would absolutely work in the CR location.

A new stadium combined with the 670 cap and interwoven into the Crossroads/Downtown urban fabric while also having its own towers etc could easily give KC a top three MLB park in the country. The stadium will be embedded and connected to all the different parts of downtown from Crown Center to the CBD. The stadium would be more visible from all of downtown and feel more like a true part of the downtown area.

And I know people say they don't care about the views, but the views from a ballpark there would be amazing from the seats and the concourses. You would see out over downtown's towers, the Barttle Pylons and PAC etc. The crossroads and crown center skylines and Liberty Memorial would be in your face from the concourse areas. I mean this would put KC on a totally different level off showing off its urban core.

There is just no way the EV location can remotely compare. This is why I think this is the one time where some destruction is well worth the end result for long term success.

KC could really do something special with that Crossroads location. Something far more than just tearing out a couple of blocks and dropping in a stadium, which is what every other city has done, even those with amazing downtown parks. As nice as Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Baltimore etc are, they won't compare to a stadium in KC at this location.

Before and after games, it will be natural for people to walk to and from Crown Center, Union Station, walk through the 670 park, over to the P&L or over to the NLBM, walk over to Main for the Streetcar etc. You are not going to have near that same activity at in greater downtown at EV. It will be more of a drive to the park and go home experience.

This location could be absolutely incredible. And I still think the EV would develop rather quickly once the stadium went to the Crossroads, but even if it didn't, it's just not worth missing out on creating such an immersive urban ballpark district just so you can easily cover up a bunch of parking lots. EV should be a backup plan and I personally hope it doesn't come to that.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

Look, the East Village is absolutely not settling. Staying at the K would be settling. The East Village is an opportunity and IMO a better opportunity for downtown than the East Crossroads.

The East Crossroads site would be a concentration of chains and stadiums. It would be doing away with multiple blocks of full small-scale retail that local businesses can afford to operate in. Do we want a Strong Town or the urban version of the Legends? Maybe you don't care or like the current tenant mix of the East Crossroads. Why should that matter one iota? It's short-term. Tenants change. It's local businesses finding success in a way that would be impossible in a stadium retail strip. Instead of Kobi-Q, we'll have Guy Fieri's latest Asian concept. Instead of Chartreuse Saloon, we'll get a Jose Pepper's. Is that what downtown residents actually want? Will some of that retail be replaced with mixed use mid or high-rise construction without a stadium? Sure, probably, but at least that would be based on satisfying the demand created by having a strong downtown, instead of some billionaires and politicians pointing at a map. The argument for the East Crossroads is the same argument for the Midtown Marketplace. What's there isn't good enough, let's bulldoze it for a mega-project. At least Costco and Home Depot are useful on a daily basis.

Instead, the East Village site offers the opportunity to expand downtown's active footprint without risking destroying any momentum the area currently has. Why should we want everything to be concentrated in a few square blocks surrounded by acres of surface parking? Again, are we trying to build a high quality urban area or the Legends? P&L and T-Mobile filled a black hole of parking, abandoned buildings and a few businesses. We have other black holes that need filling in. The East Crossroads isn't one of them. It will bridge the divide between the residential towers in the NE part of the loop and Columbus Park with the rest of downtown. It provides space for the Royals to develop whatever it is they want to build without tearing down even more of a successful neighborhood. There is no chance for development to move any further east until the East Village fills in. A stadium there provides that opportunity. I don't know why this needs to be said on this forum but downtown is more than just the Power & Light District.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

it will be natural for people to walk to and from Crown Center, Union Station,

So, people won't walk a 1/4 mile from the East Village to P&L but they'll walk almost 3/4 mile to Crown Center?

[GRID]

^ I guess you didn't really read my post, but my entire point is that downtown is more than the P&L District and I think that part of downtown will be the only real benefit to an EV location.

Why can't a East Crossroads stadium compliment retail in the crossroads? Sure, the tenants in the stadium street facing retail itself is likely to be chains etc, but you would be able to walk across the street or further to find anything else you want. How will you ever get that at EV?

Regardless of how close it is, EV is isolated from downtown's activity. It's walled off by highways and the Gov district. It will be somewhat connected to the P&L via 12th or whatever, but's not going to have to have activity unless there is a game. It will be hard for the ballpark to even sustain its own little strip of retail in that location. Nobody is going to go over there unless they are going to a game. That means that most days and the entire winter season, it will be empty. There is no amount of stuff you can build out of thin air in EV to change that.

A stadium in that CR location will not have that problem.

[GRID]

it will be natural for people to walk to and from Crown Center, Union Station,

So, people won't walk a 1/4 mile from the East Village to P&L but they'll walk almost 3/4 mile to Crown Center?

I didn't say they wouldn't walk from EV to P&L. You are totally missing my point. The Crossroads location makes the stadium a far more integral part of "all" of Downtown, not just the P&L even though I think more would walk to the P&L district as well.

And compared to what could have been. In 20 years when most people drive downtown and park across the east loop, go to a game and go home, people will be asking why the city settled for EV when they could have put the stadium just south of the Arena closer to EVERYTHING in downtown KC.

[Chris Stritzel]

https://fox4kc.com/video/businessman-s ... e/9299912/
Everyone is talking about the stadium going on the site of the Star but that doesn’t sound at all like what the current owner is planning. If they’ve talked to them about selling, they aren’t giving the same message. They talk about the stadium going east of Oak. So, which is it?

If the current owner is entirely selling the Star building, then he wouldn’t have a say what happens to the building.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

^ I guess you didn't really read my post, but my entire point is that downtown is more than the P&L District and I think that part of downtown will be the only real benefit to an EV location.

It actually wasn't a response to your post even though it looks like it, I had started writing it before you had posted.

Why can't a East Crossroads stadium compliment retail in the crossroads? Sure, the tenants in the stadium street facing retail itself is likely to be chains etc, but you would be able to walk across the street or further to find anything else you want. How will you ever get that at EV?

It can compliment what isn't torn down, potentially. But, you're tearing down a lot of retail to make the stadium happen. It accomplishes that in the EV because EV isn't actually in the middle of nowhere like you guys keep saying. If you think people are going to walk from Crown Center for a game in the East Crossroads, then the EV site is walkable from the River Market to the Crossroads.

That means that most days and the entire winter season, it will be empty.

Newsflash: you're describing a baseball stadium. That will be just as true in the East Crossroads. Why would you want to plop that down between two successful neighborhoods?

[GRID]

Tearing down a "lot" of retail? Really? Do you really think that block strip of Oak or Grand is a vibrant urban neighborhood right now? I'm starting to wonder if people there are just so used to KC that they don't know what urban areas are like. Organic or not, that area needs a lot of help still. From the super wide streets, the types of businesses, to the amount of parking lots each business has. I mean, when I'm in town, I don't see hardly any pedestrians in that area. That's the number one thing that tells me that this is a thriving urban neighborhood.

And at an EV ballpark, all you will have is the chains that will be open probably only during games. There will never be blocks of Indy businesses surrounding the stadium. You have the government park, gov buildings, highways etc and lots of land that will need to be developed. And developing that land will not make it an actual "neighborhood", but it will at least make it less of an eyesore when you do leave the stadium. Because you don't have the ability to connect to other neighborhoods there.

I think we just have different opinions on this.

The bottom line is that either location is going to require a very thought out plan. EV can work, I just think the CR location would be incredible and take KC to a different level than just moving the royals downtown.

Maybe I'm thinking KC can pull something off that it can't with the CR location and if that's the case, then yeah, just put it in EV. Less risk I guess. I typically am pretty pessimistic about how KC develops. I mean look at the track record there. But for some reason, this project in the CR has me thinking that maybe KC can do this.

[moderne]

There is already a residential neighborhood with 3 towers that would love an EV ball park village adjacent. Those towers have stood in isolation for half a century. A ball park village would be closer walk to those residents of downtown than P&L. The residential apartment renters in the Light towers are not the only population to consider in the DT loop. The residential condo owners in the NE Loop are equally or even more committed to DT.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I still am baffled by this insinuation that a ballpark is going to "destroy the momentum in the Crossroads"...like what? That sounds almost as insane as most NIMBY rhetoric does where you just scratch your head. Putting a 35k person draw in place of mostly surface lots, decking 2 more blocks of highway, and more additional spin-off...doesn't blunt momentum, it only adds to it by a bunch

[TheBigChuckbowski]

Tearing down a "lot" of retail? Really? Do you really think that block strip of Oak or Grand is a vibrant urban neighborhood right now?

No one's trying to act like it's our most successful part of town but there are dozens of small local businesses open there. Even if you don't like the current tenants for whatever reasons (and there's a helluva lot more than a shitty club and U-Haul place no matter what nonsense is being posted on here, also Grand through there is probably one of our busiest streets for foot traffic (Google Maps even has it labeled as a busy corridor), it really doesn't matter. In 5 years it'll be different. These are the kinds of retail spaces you can't get back. No developer is going to build like this again. Those buildings provide opportunities for small business to operate downtown, something I don't want to see disappear, and precisely the kind of place I want to live in or near. A baseball stadium with chains surrounding it across the street from an arena with more chains with a ton of parking available in East Village and in the Crossroads' future is a suburbanite's idea of a good urban area. Definitely not a bunch of small locally owned retail, that's garbage. Not sure how this board became so infected with that thinking.

And at an EV ballpark, all you will have is the chains that will be open probably only during games. There will never be blocks of Indy businesses surrounding the stadium. You have the government park, gov buildings, highways etc and lots of land that will need to be developed. And developing that land will not make it an actual "neighborhood", but it will at least make it less of an eyesore when you do leave the stadium. Because you don't have the ability to connect to other neighborhoods there.

The government district is one of the few places with people actually working consistently in the office. There are thousands of residents very close to there and if the Royals do develop around the area, they're not going to put in some single story retail, like P&L, they'll put retail under mid-rises. And, the East Crossroads also has highways around it, you realize that, right?

[GRID]

Tearing down a "lot" of retail? Really? Do you really think that block strip of Oak or Grand is a vibrant urban neighborhood right now?

No one's trying to act like it's our most successful part of town but there are dozens of small local businesses open there. Even if you don't like the current tenants for whatever reasons (and there's a helluva lot more than a shitty club and U-Haul place no matter what nonsense is being posted on here, also Grand through there is probably one of our busiest streets for foot traffic (Google Maps even has it labeled as a busy corridor), it really doesn't matter. In 5 years it'll be different. These are the kinds of retail spaces you can't get back. No developer is going to build like this again. Those buildings provide opportunities for small business to operate downtown, something I don't want to see disappear, and precisely the kind of place I want to live in or near. A baseball stadium with chains surrounding it across the street from an arena with more chains with a ton of parking available in East Village and in the Crossroads' future is a suburbanite's idea of a good urban area. Definitely not a bunch of small locally owned retail, that's garbage. Not sure how this board became so infected with that thinking.

And at an EV ballpark, all you will have is the chains that will be open probably only during games. There will never be blocks of Indy businesses surrounding the stadium. You have the government park, gov buildings, highways etc and lots of land that will need to be developed. And developing that land will not make it an actual "neighborhood", but it will at least make it less of an eyesore when you do leave the stadium. Because you don't have the ability to connect to other neighborhoods there.

The government district is one of the few places with people actually working consistently in the office. There are thousands of residents very close to there and if the Royals do develop around the area, they're not going to put in some single story retail, like P&L, they'll put retail under mid-rises. And, the East Crossroads also has highways around it, you realize that, right?

Sorry, I just disagree with most of what you are saying. The Crossroads will always have the businesses you are talking about. Actually, with all the investment in a ballpark at the Star site, you are going to see a lot more pop up in the crossroads district. There is not much in the blocks being discussed for removal. A handful that could easily be replicated in other blocks of the crossroads. Especially to the east as the area is still very industrial.

And if you don't see the difference between the NE comer of the loop and the east crossroads as far as how the areas interact with surrounding districts then I many not be able to continue this conversation.

The EV has two highways that are extreme barriers to urban connectivity. The north and east loops. Then you have government buildings with all their big setbacks and secure footprints to the west and south and once again the south loop which is expansive and will never be capped east of Oak and probably not even east of Grand if the stadium goes to EV.

Those gov buildings have been there forever, and they generate very little foot traffic other than to the parking lots. I think most Gov employees never leave the buildings for lunches etc and now with wfh, the federal building is probably mostly empty most days. There is a reason very little retail has ever been successful east of Grand in the loop. It's the same deal here in DC. The deadest part of the city with almost no private restaurants etc is the gov district. All those building have their own cafeterias etc and the area is too locked down.

Now let's look at the East Crossroads site. The 670 cap will not only remove the barrier to the north it will become a draw within itself, so basically the opposite of a barrier. It will help combine the core of downtown with the east crossroad's. Then there is no barrier to the vast crossroads district and other parts of downtown to the west and south. The only barrier is 71 which is actually a couple of blocks further east than the EV location giving you a little more room to build it up and also where you can put any new parking needed up against that 71 barrier.

Right now the Star Press building is a massive barrier for the east crossroads to truly thrive. Replacing that with a building with activated street retail in a ballpark and an extended 670 cap would be much better for the East Crossroads.

[beautyfromashes]

https://fox4kc.com/video/businessman-s ... e/9299912/
Everyone is talking about the stadium going on the site of the Star but that doesn’t sound at all like what the current owner is planning. If they’ve talked to them about selling, they aren’t giving the same message. They talk about the stadium going east of Oak. So, which is it?

If the current owner is entirely selling the Star building, then he wouldn’t have a say what happens to the building.

But, that's the point, is he really selling? It sure doesn't sound like it but people are already putting out their visions of the stadium on top of his destroyed building.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

And if you don't see the difference between the NE comer of the loop and the east crossroads as far as how the areas interact with surrounding districts then I many not be able to continue this conversation.

That's such a weird argument. So, we're just going to keep it isolated forever? How is that developing a good urban core? Having isolated residential towers paired with Village East is good urbanism? So, we'll have East Village, which is a parking lot, and Village East, which is replicating an exurban retail development.

The EV has two highways that are extreme barriers to urban connectivity. The north and east loops. Then you have government buildings with all their big setbacks and secure footprints to the west and south and once again the south loop which is expansive and will never be capped east of Oak and probably not even east of Grand if the stadium goes to EV.

EV is just as far from north loop as the East Crossroads site is from 71. And, the NE section of the loop has some large residential buildings as a barrier. Large residential buildings that shouldn't be isolated from the rest of downtown, like they are.

Now let's look at the East Crossroads site. The 670 cap will not only remove the barrier to the north it will become a draw within itself, so basically the opposite of a barrier. It will help combine the core of downtown with the east crossroad's. Then there is no barrier to the vast crossroads district and other parts of downtown to the west and south. The only barrier is 71 which is actually a couple of blocks further east than the EV location giving you a little more room to build it up and also where you can put any new parking needed up against that 71 barrier.

Why is everyone assuming the cap (that's not even a sure thing) is going to be extended? Those two blocks would face the loading dock for T-Mobile Center and the back of the stadium. I mean, sure, both of those things could be dressed up and made to interact with the park well but it's hardly a slam dunk when it's increasing the cost of the cap by who knows how much to have limited utility beyond being a better doorstep for the baseball stadium.

Right now the Star Press building is a massive barrier for the east crossroads to truly thrive. Replacing that with a building with activated street retail in a ballpark and an extended 670 cap would be much better for the East Crossroads.

Replacing it with mixed use residential buildings would be even better.

[DColeKC]

https://fox4kc.com/video/businessman-s ... e/9299912/
Everyone is talking about the stadium going on the site of the Star but that doesn’t sound at all like what the current owner is planning. If they’ve talked to them about selling, they aren’t giving the same message. They talk about the stadium going east of Oak. So, which is it?

If the current owner is entirely selling the Star building, then he wouldn’t have a say what happens to the building.

But, that's the point, is he really selling? It sure doesn't sound like it but people are already putting out their visions of the stadium on top of his destroyed building.

Huh? I mean the building has been for sale since the moment he bought it. He has no intentions of operating the place himself, it was an investment. He's saying whatever he can in order to get the most out of it. It's more valuable if someone buys it and flips vs buying it and demolishing it. He may be the only person they need to use ED with if he tries to get some astronomical price. It's worth 11 million, not a penny more.

[beautyfromashes]

If the current owner is entirely selling the Star building, then he wouldn’t have a say what happens to the building.

But, that's the point, is he really selling? It sure doesn't sound like it but people are already putting out their visions of the stadium on top of his destroyed building.

Huh? I mean the building has been for sale since the moment he bought it. He has no intentions of operating the place himself, it was an investment. He's saying whatever he can in order to get the most out of it. It's more valuable if someone buys it and flips vs buying it and demolishing it. He may be the only person they need to use ED with if he tries to get some astronomical price. It's worth 11 million, not a penny more.

Your boys don’t even have the main property piece locked down and your drawing plans on it? If that’s what the Royals really want, that should have been step #1!

[DColeKC]

Why is everyone assuming the cap (that's not even a sure thing) is going to be extended? Those two blocks would face the loading dock for T-Mobile Center and the back of the stadium. I mean, sure, both of those things could be dressed up and made to interact with the park well but it's hardly a slam dunk when it's increasing the cost of the cap by who knows how much to have limited utility beyond being a better doorstep for the baseball stadium.

Right now the Star Press building is a massive barrier for the east crossroads to truly thrive. Replacing that with a building with activated street retail in a ballpark and an extended 670 cap would be much better for the East Crossroads.

Replacing it with mixed use residential buildings would be even better.

Because the Royals would chip in on the park project in order to cover the costs of expanding the project.

We already have planned mixed use residential going in along Truman. On both sides! Not to mention, a tower or two would likely be part of the stadium project.


I'm just baffled that people think a stadium sitting on 10 acres in a neighborhood that's 375 acres is going to dramatically change the entire neighborhood in any negative way.

The smaller retail buildings that changeover every 5 years from one business to the next will still exist in droves. They may not be right along Truman Road anymore. Would there be more chains that come to the area, maybe but they're going to go into PNL before they go into a much older building that can't accommodate their needs. Even the oldest buildings in Crossroads are currently going for 1.5 million.

[DColeKC]

But, that's the point, is he really selling? It sure doesn't sound like it but people are already putting out their visions of the stadium on top of his destroyed building.

Huh? I mean the building has been for sale since the moment he bought it. He has no intentions of operating the place himself, it was an investment. He's saying whatever he can in order to get the most out of it. It's more valuable if someone buys it and flips vs buying it and demolishing it. He may be the only person they need to use ED with if he tries to get some astronomical price. It's worth 11 million, not a penny more.

Your boys don’t even have the main property piece locked down and your drawing plans on it? If that’s what the Royals really want, that should have been step #1!

They don't have East Village locked. They didn't have NKC locked up. Yet official renderings were done. I'd ask you what your point is, but I know you don't have one.

They started the land acquisition process for East Crossroads months ago. They're all in on it. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with how these things work, but they're not going to wait to to start planning and getting the official drawings done.

[dnweava]

instead of the location, I'd like to discuss the design. So populous is working on it I guess? 95% of their stadiums are boring, generic modern spaceships. To be fair, I guess that's the aesthetic most soccer teams want right now, but the exterior of the new Bills stadium replaced the whales in my nightmares it's so bad... They designed Miami and Atlanta's baseball stadiums which are both trash, but they also did Minneapolis and and New Yankee which are both great.

My ideal stadium would be Target field but with Art Deco and Beaux arts elements. I really like Target's interior and size which fits in it's urban footprint and isn't just a generic symmetrical ballpark, but something like Yankee stadiums exterior with it's classic design. KC has so much great Art Deco/Beaux arts buildings and it's a travesty that it doesn't get the love it deserves. Between Union Station, Muni arena, P&L tower, Liberty memorial, and City hall, we have some of the most underrated buildings in the entire country and it would be amazing to complement with a stadium that has some of those beautiful elements. The world doesn't need another stadium that looks like it belongs in a suburban office park.

I'd also hope we go for a right sized stadium that we can fill on a regular basis but design it for temp seating for season openers and playoffs and such. I don't know why we have never seen this in baseball, but I think retractable/temp seats make so much sense. Have something like 32k permanent seats, and have like a party deck that can have retractable or portable bleachers to increase capacity when needed like how Tampa Bucs had temps seats for the Brady years or Arizona Cardinals fills in the endzone with extra seats for superbowls. But design the area so it looks good as a party deck, unlike the Arizona endzone which looks absolutely terrible when the temp seats aren't there.


Also, another crazy idea, use the Buck O'Neil bridge in the stadium since MoDot is currently trying to give it away. Could use it as a roof structure/big arch over the main entrance, or like part of the roof structure over some of the seats.

[DColeKC]

I'm starting to find it shocking that a few of you on here, a development forum, are pushing for suburban type, decentralized development simply because you want a hole filled.

Spreading out the development does a few things.
1. Lowers density which can result in lower population density and maybe create less congestion. We don't have a congestion issue as is.
2. Creates a car-friendly, if not car-centric environment.
3. Increases infrastructure costs as it needs more of everything. Roads, utilities and services.

By placing things more closely together and taking advantage of existing momentum, you have so many advantages. Most of which I've already mentioned but a few more.
1.Infrastructure efficiencies.
2. Better access to public transpiration.
3. Economic benefits by concentrating development a central area, stimulating economic activity and helping create a vibrant urban core with diverse businesses.

There is a reason the city is willing to financially back only one site at this time.