Downtown Baseball Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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KCPowercat
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCPowercat »

Only in KC do we even hint at 4 blocks being "broken up" urban areas. Goodness.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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WoodDraw wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:47 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:41 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:02 pm The difference is that in the east village the land is all banked. I'm not for or against anything, but I see a path to creating a neighborhood with incentives that align towards development.

The exact reverse incentives are there for the crossroads. Cordish already owns enough land to make multiple towers. They want no competition. They want people going to the game and going to their district and building their apartments.

I don't think the royals are going to invest billions of dollars. So if we're going to go along with this charade, at least put it with a developer that might want to do something.
So the royals should work with the only developer who’s actually done something substantial in our downtown over the last 15 years?
You keep pretending that cordish is involved in this and they're not. They want to protect their property.


I'm with Dave. The ev has been banked for this. Let's announce it and I'll get behind it. I'm completely against the crossroads location.
Huh? They are involved in this. Did you not read the article where Blake Cordish was with John Sherman? They’ve met a handful of times over the last month on this. You know why they got involved? Because things weren’t progressing and the royals have zero experience organizing and facilitating public private partnerships. Like I’ve said, Cordish will help get EV done too but it’s no secret they have a site preference.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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KCPowercat wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:29 pm Only in KC do we even hint at 4 blocks being "broken up" urban areas. Goodness.
No, not really. I’ve worked on projects all over the country and it turns out, almost everyone likes convenience.

Please, tell me if this crossroads site was cleared and land banked, would you consider it a better option?
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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WoodDraw wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:02 pm
DMNBT_RCJH wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:58 pm
TheSmokinPun wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:32 pm.

HThis really does feel like a power grab to monopolize. I'm sorry man, I know you mean well & I'm not personally attacking you, but it does feel that way.
No one else has vertically developed residential downtown besides Cordish, even in ZIRP. Like what are we talking about?

I’ve seen several posts talking about a lack of “competition.” There’s literally dozens of places to build and the only non Cordish places to go up are Loews and 1400KC. Copaken isn’t doing anything downtown. Block isn’t doing anything downtown.

Lux is actually trying, and they’ve got good backing, but can they clear TIF and council? 14th & Wyandotte and City Harvest are huge projects for the City that NEED to happen. If for no other reason than to signal to other developers that higher rise buildings can be market competitive against Cordish.

Maybe it’s a KC and market forces and not a “monopoly”?

Keep in mind, any ballpark village in EV would in essence also be a monopoly. So I’m not sure the point people are trying to make here.
Copaken hasn't developed residential? It's hard to take people serious when it's full of bullshit
Not downtown. No towers. If they have, please point them out but just looked at their portfolio and I see nothing. They’ve failed on multiple occasions and have been parking lot operators as you claim to dislike for decades downtown. Oh wait, they call those pad sites.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by WoodDraw »

DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:32 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:47 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:41 pm

So the royals should work with the only developer who’s actually done something substantial in our downtown over the last 15 years?
You keep pretending that cordish is involved in this and they're not. They want to protect their property.


I'm with Dave. The ev has been banked for this. Let's announce it and I'll get behind it. I'm completely against the crossroads location.
Huh? They are involved in this. Did you not read the article where Blake Cordish was with John Sherman? They’ve met a handful of times over the last month on this. You know why they got involved? Because things weren’t progressing and the royals have zero experience organizing and facilitating public private partnerships. Like I’ve said, Cordish will help get EV done too but it’s no secret they have a site preference.
They. Don't. Own. The. Land.

I don't get why this is so hard to comprehend.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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WoodDraw wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:02 pm Copaken hasn't developed residential? It's hard to take people serious when it's full of bullshit
They have not done anything downtown like in the loop I think is what they are saying. They have a shit ton of cleared land, but they don't build on it.

And the buildings they have built in the crossroads are a much smaller scale.

IDK man. Maybe KC is just not a good enough market for a developer to come in and build a 20-30 story building and parking structure without 25 million in incentives and even with those incentives, Cordish is really conservative like you say. I mean it bothers me as well that Cordish would have so much control over so much land downtown considering they can only seem to put up one building every 4-5 years. It will take 100 years to build on their property alone.

I guess my concern is they are the only ones that seem to be able to even pull off getting a tower crane on a site.

I agree with just about everything you have said. But I can't side with EV or the Star site without seeing more details. I personally think they are going to end up scrapping the Star location again due to cost and complexities. They are trying to make it work, but good god that location has a lot of challenges.

My biggest concern would be the Feds even allowing a 40,000 seat stadium to go over the top of a major interstate. That's not even a MoDot issue, that will need FHA approval. And in the remote chance they do approve it, 670 would need to be totally rebuilt under a new stadium. Look at the retaining walls of 670. The entire trench needs to be replaced. That's why the park to Grand is costing so much.

My point is that this site will add hundreds of millions of dollars to the cost of the stadium and public infrastructure and while I do think it's the better location, that site is a BIG ask for city like KC and MOdot which combined have some of the worst urban infrastructure in the country in the KC area. Compare that with plopping a stadium on a big empty lot in EV.

I guess my issue is I'm not buying this idea that anything substantial will be built along side a new stadium and I don't think Modot will do what is needed to modernize the east loop etc. So you just end up with a stadium near downtown and that's it. And maybe that's fine.

I still think we should hear out what this Star site plan is though. You just never know and DColeKC likely knows a lot more than what he has shared. I absolutely believe that site has moved into the number one location "for now".

I feel for KC with this. I mean most people in the metro don't even want a new stadium and none of the final locations are good enough to probably get a vote to pass to walk away from a stadium that most people love.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

WoodDraw wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:39 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:32 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:47 pm

You keep pretending that cordish is involved in this and they're not. They want to protect their property.


I'm with Dave. The ev has been banked for this. Let's announce it and I'll get behind it. I'm completely against the crossroads location.
Huh? They are involved in this. Did you not read the article where Blake Cordish was with John Sherman? They’ve met a handful of times over the last month on this. You know why they got involved? Because things weren’t progressing and the royals have zero experience organizing and facilitating public private partnerships. Like I’ve said, Cordish will help get EV done too but it’s no secret they have a site preference.
They. Don't. Own. The. Land.

I don't get why this is so hard to comprehend.
It’s hard to comprehend because you’re not good at explaining your points. You said they’re not involved in this. They are. No one said they own the land and I’m not sure what that has to do with anything.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:34 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:29 pm Only in KC do we even hint at 4 blocks being "broken up" urban areas. Goodness.
No, not really. I’ve worked on projects all over the country and it turns out, almost everyone likes convenience.

Please, tell me if this crossroads site was cleared and land banked, would you consider it a better option?
4 blocks is convenient. 3 blocks is connected for the crossroads site over a highway but a connected downtown street (13th) from EV to pnl isn't? I am not following.

Crossroads site isn't cleared. This isn't sim city. We are dealing with reality here.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

KCPowercat wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:52 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:34 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:29 pm Only in KC do we even hint at 4 blocks being "broken up" urban areas. Goodness.
No, not really. I’ve worked on projects all over the country and it turns out, almost everyone likes convenience.

Please, tell me if this crossroads site was cleared and land banked, would you consider it a better option?
4 blocks is convenient. 3 blocks is connected for the crossroads site over a highway but a connected downtown street (13th) from EV to pnl isn't? I am not following.

Crossroads site isn't cleared. This isn't sim city. We are dealing with reality here.
You would literally be able to see power and light from one location and not from the other. Distance matters. If T-Mobile Center was in EV versus it’s current location I’m sure you could understand how less convenient and ideal that would be for guests.

I’m living in reality I think……. My question was hypothetical but I know why you’re deflecting.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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GRID wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:44 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:02 pm Copaken hasn't developed residential? It's hard to take people serious when it's full of bullshit
They have not done anything downtown like in the loop I think is what they are saying. They have a shit ton of cleared land, but they don't build on it.

And the buildings they have built in the crossroads are a much smaller scale.

IDK man. Maybe KC is just not a good enough market for a developer to come in and build a 20-30 story building and parking structure without 25 million in incentives and even with those incentives, Cordish is really conservative like you say. I mean it bothers me as well that Cordish would have so much control over so much land downtown considering they can only seem to put up one building every 4-5 years. It will take 100 years to build on their property alone.

I guess my concern is they are the only ones that seem to be able to even pull off getting a tower crane on a site.

I agree with just about everything you have said. But I can't side with EV or the Star site without seeing more details. I personally think they are going to end up scrapping the Star location again due to cost and complexities. They are trying to make it work, but good god that location has a lot of challenges.

My biggest concern would be the Feds even allowing a 40,000 seat stadium to go over the top of a major interstate. That's not even a MoDot issue, that will need FHA approval. And in the remote chance they do approve it, 670 would need to be totally rebuilt under a new stadium. Look at the retaining walls of 670. The entire trench needs to be replaced. That's why the park to Grand is costing so much.

My point is that this site will add hundreds of millions of dollars to the cost of the stadium and public infrastructure and while I do think it's the better location, that site is a BIG ask for city like KC and MOdot which combined have some of the worst urban infrastructure in the country in the KC area. Compare that with plopping a stadium on a big empty lot in EV.

I guess my issue is I'm not buying this idea that anything substantial will be built along side a new stadium and I don't think Modot will do what is needed to modernize the east loop etc. So you just end up with a stadium near downtown and that's it. And maybe that's fine.

I still think we should hear out what this Star site plan is though. You just never know and DColeKC likely knows a lot more than what he has shared. I absolutely believe that site has moved into the number one location "for now".

I feel for KC with this. I mean most people in the metro don't even want a new stadium and none of the final locations are good enough to probably get a vote to pass to walk away from a stadium that most people love.
Listen, I'm not here to defend copaken. But look at the lots around the Sprint center. Decades in and we're still waiting.

I think you and I agree like 95%.

I think the idea that the royals are going to invest billions it's bullshit. So let's put that aside.

But in the ev you do have a developer that should have some incentive to make it work. With free land to work with.

Cordish will not start building in the crossroads. They simply won't.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:37 pm…The projected revenue way back in the day for PNL likely assumed the arena would have a sports anchored tenant.
It also assumed Cordish would’ve made a fucking effort in the last two decades to lease out some of their retail bays, Instead of 1/4-1/2 of it sitting empty any given point in time… but alas.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by WoodDraw »

DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:50 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:39 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:32 pm

Huh? They are involved in this. Did you not read the article where Blake Cordish was with John Sherman? They’ve met a handful of times over the last month on this. You know why they got involved? Because things weren’t progressing and the royals have zero experience organizing and facilitating public private partnerships. Like I’ve said, Cordish will help get EV done too but it’s no secret they have a site preference.
They. Don't. Own. The. Land.

I don't get why this is so hard to comprehend.
It’s hard to comprehend because you’re not good at explaining your points. You said they’re not involved in this. They are. No one said they own the land and I’m not sure what that has to do with anything.
I'm as involved as cordish is if we're saying involved means having happy hours with people.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by WoodDraw »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:00 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:37 pm…The projected revenue way back in the day for PNL likely assumed the arena would have a sports anchored tenant.
It also assumed Cordish would’ve made a fucking effort in the last two decades to lease out some of their retail bays, Instead of 1/4-1/2 of it sitting empty any given point in time… but alas.
I like grumpy Anthony
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Chris Stritzel »

WoodDraw wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:02 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:00 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:37 pm…The projected revenue way back in the day for PNL likely assumed the arena would have a sports anchored tenant.
It also assumed Cordish would’ve made a fucking effort in the last two decades to lease out some of their retail bays, Instead of 1/4-1/2 of it sitting empty any given point in time… but alas.
I like grumpy Anthony
It's gettin' heated up in here!
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:00 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:37 pm…The projected revenue way back in the day for PNL likely assumed the arena would have a sports anchored tenant.
It also assumed Cordish would’ve made a fucking effort in the last two decades to lease out some of their retail bays, Instead of 1/4-1/2 of it sitting empty any given point in time… but alas.
Oh yeah, they’ve not leased them because they hate making money. They really just love paying utilities and upkeep on empty space. Their favorite thing to do as a company is to bleed money. They build things to keep them empty.

Come on. Claiming these spaces have sat empty because of a lack of effort is ignorant.

But on a serious note. Even with all the places leased, there would still be a shortage of tax revenue. What’s needed is traffic. What drives traffic? Entertainment options, tourism and office.

If only we could build something close that sees a million or more visitors a year!!!
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:58 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:52 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:34 pm

No, not really. I’ve worked on projects all over the country and it turns out, almost everyone likes convenience.

Please, tell me if this crossroads site was cleared and land banked, would you consider it a better option?
4 blocks is convenient. 3 blocks is connected for the crossroads site over a highway but a connected downtown street (13th) from EV to pnl isn't? I am not following.

Crossroads site isn't cleared. This isn't sim city. We are dealing with reality here.
You would literally be able to see power and light from one location and not from the other. Distance matters. If T-Mobile Center was in EV versus it’s current location I’m sure you could understand how less convenient and ideal that would be for guests.

I’m living in reality I think……. My question was hypothetical but I know why you’re deflecting.
It's not reality. Id lay it all out different if you give me a clean slate. I would not put an arena and baseball stadium side by side though in a downtown neighborhood. It's too much dead space
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by WoodDraw »

I would love to see cordish taxes and see if they haven't written those off. Might save them money
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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WoodDraw wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:16 pm I would love to see cordish taxes and see if they haven't written those off
They have to share all financials with the city each year. Don’t you think the city would be all over them if they were sandbagging or purposely keeping spaces empty for some odd tax reason? I mean you want to tell me this crossroads site isn’t real while you say something like this?

And KCP - Speaking of reality. Every time I respond to a concern with a real example, it’s ignored. So who’s not dealing in reality here?
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by WoodDraw »

DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:21 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:16 pm I would love to see cordish taxes and see if they haven't written those off
They have to share all financials with the city each year. Don’t you think the city would be all over them if they were sandbagging or purposely keeping spaces empty for some odd tax reason? I mean you want to tell me this crossroads site isn’t real while you say something like this?

And KCP - Speaking of reality. Every time I respond to a concern with a real example, it’s ignored. So who’s not dealing in reality here?
That's not really how taxes work. You can say this thing we spent x is now worth 0.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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What real example did I miss? I'm not one to dodge a question.
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