Downtown Baseball Stadium

[DColeKC]

Plain & simple: the Crossroads doesn't need it. I can believe the one person getting excited over this due to their corporate interests but the rest of the folks? Come on now, this is just silly at this point. We were coming up with grand plans to put the Chiefs on the other side of 35 & now everyone wants to tear down a good chunk of the Crossroads for this? Can hardly call this place about urban planning if we just push everything out of the way rather than building responsibly.

You can assume I'm getting excited due to my "corporate" interest but this isn't about me or anyone I'm affiliated with. This is about the best decision for the city which by the way, Urban Planning is literally optimizing the effectiveness of a communities land use. It's hard to argue that using this land that will draw more people in one game day to the area than the existing businesses draw in an entire year isn't the most optimized use of the land.

I get how some of the crossroads fans think the area doesn't need it. I understand the hesitation and preference to keep all existing viable buildings but what I don't understand is how anyone can argue against the economic facts here. A stadium in the crossroads instantly makes the area a more desirable location, increases property values for all those smaller and bigger investors while heavily increasing the traffic flow, aka potential customers to the area.

And once again, this area will not remain the same forever. As downtown continues it's development, this exact area will see developers come in and transform it one way or another. We are talking about under 20 acres when the crossroads is almost 300 total.

It's already a desired location. Just go down Google Street View on every street over the past decade with the flashbacks & see how it redeveloped without having a ballpark dropped in the middle. I refuse to lose that & have zero interest in a stadium in that location, & I'm much more a baseball fan than an art fan.

Sorry man, just never going to win me over on this one. I'm all for the EV site & want to see a chunk of downtown that is just sitting there, empty, no real organic growth ever taking off. It just seems extremely greedy at this point & I would never vote for approving tax funds for a site that the corporations liked more than the other site but won't chip in for the bill. I am 100% against this.

Who said they're not chipping in? This site would likely mean less of an ask for the tax payer. That's one of the many reasons it's being considered. How it impacts pre-existing tax backed developments is also in play. Why would we put something downtown that could potentially harm a tax backed development that needs to produce more tax revenue to cover the bonds? Just not smart land use if you ask me.

[DColeKC]

I'm really torn on this one. The ambience will be 10x better in that Crossroads spot (and will be one of the best in MLB), but this might be the only chance of this generation to completely fix East Village. Such a tough one.

Trust me, East Village gets developed regardless if the stadium goes there. We can literally have a new stadium that opens day one in the ideal location, woven into the fabric of our great downtown AND get East Village developed with much needed mid-rise apartments we could really use downtown.

[wahoowa]

the contention that the stadium will make the surrounding area more economically viable in the crossroads is in direct tension with literally everyone on this thread's eminently reasonable and well-founded skepticism that plopping the stadium in the EV would yield significant development in its environs. either the stadium adds development value to the area (in which case building in EV presents the easiest avenue to make the highest impact on downtown relative to the status quo in that it literally fills a hole) or the stadium needs pre-existing development in order to facilitate a pseudo ballpark village (in which case what is a reasonable person's honest assessment of the likelihood that the stadium adds economic value sufficient to warrant tearing down existing uses between grand and oak just to cut the walk from the stadium to the nearest corner of the KC live block from 10 minutes to 6 minutes, and the walk from the stadium to the streetcar from 12 minutes to 6 minutes?).

obviously there are people here that are inclined to answer that question differently than i do, which is of course fine. i guess my parting shot here is that ultimately the ultra rich guys shouldn't BOTH get whatever $$$$ subsidies, financing, and benefits associated with the new stadium build that chiefly serves to royally line their pockets AND avoid bearing the risk that they can't make a baseball district happen in an impactful way that adds value. if you're selling economic impact on the area to get your subsidies, put the public money where your mouth is and go make something special out of nothing. if your internal assessment is that you need to leech off an existing area to make your vision viable, that's fine too. just pay for it yourself.

[GRID]

Ive never been particularly excited about EV, ultimately seems like a much heavier lift to make it interesting, but of course miles ahead of TSC. If the crossroads location is doable, way more exciting and synergistic IMHO. How that land gets assembled I have no idea, and I have yet to see a serious proposed footprint or autopsy of which businesses will be lost. Ill personally head the relocation committee for any business that wants to relocate into any of the countless open retail spaces in the neighborhood. Im not advocating for eminent domain, but if they can do this and take care of the few businesses who are long term members of the community, seems like a major win. And as dcole said, could finally free up the EV location for non-baseball development.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Are us urban focused people on this site actually in favor of ripping out another swath of the few areas we actually have active and built up organically? All while another big empty swath sits there ready to go? It just seems to go against every bit of logic of this site so I assume I'm missing something.

I totally get what people are saying about using the empty land in EV. But I am simply not sold on the site and I honestly think it has a high chance of turning into a total dud and wasted the once in a lifetime chance to do something special with a MLB stadium. I'll take a risk if that's the only option and hope for the best. But I just don't see the EV materializing into anything remarkable. If the stadium doesn't go there, something else will. The EV is really more ideal for low and midrise 5 over ones etc. Just let it develop organically. The master plans there have not worked.

The Star location on the other hand would be amazing. I think something could be done there with minimal loss of existing building stock. But a stadium there would absolutely trigger more development in the area from the private developers such as hotels etc.

I just don't see that happening in EV. I see the same delays and little development in EV with a stadium that the area had seen in previous decades. Maybe a little more but not much. MoDot will never properly fix the east loop, so it will always look like shit over there or if something does happen it's 20-30 years out. It's just not a great location for a stadium. It will interact with a bunch of government buildings set way back from the streets etc. Again, I'll take it if it's the only option and just hope for the best.

[DColeKC]

the contention that the stadium will make the surrounding area more economically viable in the crossroads is in direct tension with literally everyone on this thread's eminently reasonable and well-founded skepticism that plopping the stadium in the EV would yield significant development in its environs. either the stadium adds development value to the area (in which case building in EV presents the easiest avenue to make the highest impact on downtown relative to the status quo in that it literally fills a hole) or the stadium needs pre-existing development in order to facilitate a pseudo ballpark village (in which case what is a reasonable person's honest assessment of the likelihood that the stadium adds economic value sufficient to warrant tearing down existing uses between grand and oak just to cut the walk from the stadium to the nearest corner of the KC live block from 10 minutes to 6 minutes, and the walk from the stadium to the streetcar from 12 minutes to 6 minutes?).

obviously there are people here that are inclined to answer that question differently than i do, which is of course fine. i guess my parting shot here is that ultimately the ultra rich guys shouldn't BOTH get whatever $$$$ subsidies, financing, and benefits associated with the new stadium build that chiefly serves to royally line their pockets AND avoid bearing the risk that they can't make a baseball district happen in an impactful way that adds value. if you're selling economic impact on the area to get your subsidies, put the public money where your mouth is and go make something special out of nothing. if your internal assessment is that you need to leech off an existing area to make your vision viable, that's fine too. just pay for it yourself.

Good point and I'll try and shut up after this response.

I think my fear is that a stadium in EV does not guarantee the area opens and is instantly successful. I think it's better than TSC but the likelihood it gets built out to a full village is low from what I know. I understand we have a big empty hole over there but to be honest, it's not seen by most people visiting downtown and I don't consider it a high priority eye sore where we need to sacrifice the overall impact of a new downtown baseball stadium just to fill the gap. Once again, urban planning isn't simply about filling up space, it's about best use of space. Putting the stadium in East Village, even with the proposed village being built would just be self-serving and feed itself. It wouldn't lift everyone and all downtown stakeholders nearly as much as other options.

Putting this stadium at the Star Press site reduces overall costs, gets rid of a highly undesirable, massive eye sore that will only get worse and stands to be an economic driver for existing businesses opposed to only feeding the ballpark village component.

IF this area of the crossroads was 90% empty and currently surface lots like EV, would those opposed still not want it there? Is the hold up demolishing existing (but not thriving) businesses or is it the fact that crossroads enthusiasts are clinging to the idea that the area isn't "corporate"?

[rxlexi]

Man, here I was hoping maybe 18th/Vine combo with NLBM was back on the table. I agree this is a tough one. If this could somehow be built over the 670 trench (precedent - Target Field) with a portion designed as a terminus for the South Loop park, I would be hugely in favor. An unconventional design here could really be neat, especially with a north orientation if possible.

That said, leaving big chunks of the surface parking along and around Grand, demolishing everything else south of 670, and plopping a generic stadium with a NE oriented field (hwy interchange views!) doesn't fly for me. This needs to basically take the whole block from Grand over to Oak, and I would still worry that parking interests could further destroy a lot of the surrounding fabric.

I don't share the belief that EV will be developed on any kind of reasonable timeline if the Royals don't build there, and downtown east of Grand is rough and undesirable in it's current state. It's an energy suck waiting for a major investment to balance out the downtown loop.

Need more info...

[rxlexi]

I should add, if there are serious conversations about eminent domain, etc., I would rather this go along the streetcar line on the north side of the loop. Ideal location, IMO.

Obviously the Star site presents at least one major landowner with an interest in development, unlike a north loop site.

[GRID]

Man, here I was hoping maybe 18th/Vine combo with NLBM was back on the table. I agree this is a tough one. If this could somehow be built over the 670 trench (precedent - Target Field) with a portion designed as a terminus for the South Loop park, I would be hugely in favor. An unconventional design here could really be neat, especially with a north orientation if possible.

That said, leaving big chunks of the surface parking along and around Grand, demolishing everything else south of 670, and plopping a generic stadium with a NE oriented field (hwy interchange views!) doesn't fly for me. This needs to basically take the whole block from Grand over to Oak, and I would still worry that parking interests could further destroy a lot of the surrounding fabric.

I don't share the belief that EV will be developed on any kind of reasonable timeline if the Royals don't build there, and downtown east of Grand is rough and undesirable in it's current state. It's an energy suck waiting for a major investment to balance out the downtown loop.

Need more info...

Exactly.

This is the ideal site. However, they need to get super creative. They have the room to do something there with the jail area, the highway an the star building. I really hope the town with nearly all the best stadium architects and designers in the world can come up with something more than just clearing a huge chunk of land and dropping in a generic stadium.

If done right, that would be one of the best MLB stadium sites in the country. EV, I'm sorry to say would be one of the worst urban locations.

I don't have high hopes, but I have some...

We also need a LOT more info on what they plan to do with the EV site. So far I have not been all that impressed by the renderings and there no guarantee that any of the surrounding development would happen.

I really don't think Downtown KC could support any more retail/bars etc than the P&L District either, so anything they built by a new stadium would either struggle or hurt the P&L district.

[DColeKC]

Man, here I was hoping maybe 18th/Vine combo with NLBM was back on the table. I agree this is a tough one. If this could somehow be built over the 670 trench (precedent - Target Field) with a portion designed as a terminus for the South Loop park, I would be hugely in favor. An unconventional design here could really be neat, especially with a north orientation if possible.

That said, leaving big chunks of the surface parking along and around Grand, demolishing everything else south of 670, and plopping a generic stadium with a NE oriented field (hwy interchange views!) doesn't fly for me. This needs to basically take the whole block from Grand over to Oak, and I would still worry that parking interests could further destroy a lot of the surrounding fabric.

I don't share the belief that EV will be developed on any kind of reasonable timeline if the Royals don't build there, and downtown east of Grand is rough and undesirable in it's current state. It's an energy suck waiting for a major investment to balance out the downtown loop.

Need more info...

Exactly.

This is the ideal site. However, they need to get super creative. They have the room to do something there with the jail area, the highway an the star building. I really hope the town with nearly all the best stadium architects and designers in the world can come up with something more than just clearing a huge chunk of land and dropping in a generic stadium.

If done right, that would be one of the best MLB stadium sites in the country. EV, I'm sorry to say would be one of the worst urban locations.

I don't have high hopes, but I have some...

The long lines building is really preventing some over the top creative ideas here. I've been told it's not going anywhere ever, but I don't know that to be accurate. Could it be converted?

[dukuboy1]

I just want a site downtown. I would suspect there are as many options for development around the stadium the Royals wanted? I mean there are a ton of established & striving businesses in the area. Are they going to buy them out to pave the way for their wants? EV is such a blank canvas I would assume it provides more opportunities in style & scope

[TheUrbanRoo]

If the Royals do take the Crossroads site then there should be a full on pressure campaign *immediately* to put Sporting KC or the Chiefs in the East Village spot.

[Highlander]

Talk about a monkey wrench thrown into the process. The Royals had what 5 sites that were narrowed down to two and now one of the five is added back in.
This whole process looks more and more like a botched operation.

It's what happens when there are a lot of moving parts. Glad there is a lot of thinking the various issues through rather than find some abandoned site with and plopping it down where nothing will happen around it for the next 50 years.

[wahoowa]

IF this area of the crossroads was 90% empty and currently surface lots like EV, would those opposed still not want it there? Is the hold up demolishing existing (but not thriving) businesses or is it the fact that crossroads enthusiasts are clinging to the idea that the area isn't "corporate"?

i can't speak for others as i think i'm on an island on this one. there's a good chance i wouldn't have an objection if there were nothing there. i do have this nagging sense that the crossroads location is a higher value long term development site than EV for all the same reasons proponents like you like the idea of building there, and i personally do not believe a baseball stadium is the most valuable long term development prospect conceivable there (activation only 1/4 of the year, predominantly during nights, etc). i would love to see something that helps activate the area during business hours in close proximity to the more nightlife oriented p&L, east crossroads, etc., especially if that could be accomplished without relying too heavily on office space given how that market seems to be trending after the pandemic. something like a museum could be awesome in terms of diversifying who's here, when, and why and creating a stronger customer base for surrounding businesses. probably lends even better synergy for the grandest visions for the park design, too, especially if all the family friendly components of that plan end up in the final version. but that's all a pipe dream. baseball stadium is certainly better than a parking lot.

i don't really care about the corporate piece of it, with maybe a caveat that i do find a point raised above by i think fang compelling concerning the adverse effects of demolishing existing lower rent options in the area on businesses. i think you want a mix of high dollar rents and low/medium dollar rents in order to have a healthy mix of businesses in the area and to help mitigate the effects of higher vacancy during downturns. i probably place a higher value on maintaining the existing use than an average person would for that reason. to me that's not really an anti corporate bias but i can see how someone else would characterize it that way and i guess i wouldn't really push back on the characterization. anyway, to your point, if this area were all surface lots, this point falls off for me.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

If the Royals do take the Crossroads site then there should be a full on pressure campaign *immediately* to put Sporting KC or the Chiefs in the East Village spot.

Please god don’t plop an NFL stadium anywhere within the downtown area. Talk about an energy suck

[Highlander]

Ive never been particularly excited about EV, ultimately seems like a much heavier lift to make it interesting, but of course miles ahead of TSC. If the crossroads location is doable, way more exciting and synergistic IMHO. How that land gets assembled I have no idea, and I have yet to see a serious proposed footprint or autopsy of which businesses will be lost. Ill personally head the relocation committee for any business that wants to relocate into any of the countless open retail spaces in the neighborhood. Im not advocating for eminent domain, but if they can do this and take care of the few businesses who are long term members of the community, seems like a major win. And as dcole said, could finally free up the EV location for non-baseball development.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Are us urban focused people on this site actually in favor of ripping out another swath of the few areas we actually have active and built up organically? All while another big empty swath sits there ready to go? It just seems to go against every bit of logic of this site so I assume I'm missing something.

I totally get what people are saying about using the empty land in EV. But I am simply not sold on the site and I honestly think it has a high chance of turning into a total dud and wasted the once in a lifetime chance to do something special with a MLB stadium. I'll take a risk if that's the only option and hope for the best. But I just don't see the EV materializing into anything remarkable. If the stadium doesn't go there, something else will. The EV is really more ideal for low and midrise 5 over ones etc. Just let it develop organically. The master plans there have not worked.

The Star location on the other hand would be amazing. I think something could be done there with minimal loss of existing building stock. But a stadium there would absolutely trigger more development in the area from the private developers such as hotels etc.

I just don't see that happening in EV. I see the same delays and little development in EV with a stadium that the area had seen in previous decades. Maybe a little more but not much. MoDot will never properly fix the east loop, so it will always look like shit over there or if something does happen it's 20-30 years out. It's just not a great location for a stadium. It will interact with a bunch of government buildings set way back from the streets etc. Again, I'll take it if it's the only option and just hope for the best.

These are exactly my concerns. There are several pros and cons with each site.

EV pros
Land is available
Parking will not be an issue
Could jumpstart the entire eastern half of downtown
Very little destruction of built environment

Cons
Could be another TSC in eastern downtown. Surrounded by nothing but parking lots for the next few decades.
Nothing presently compelling about that area. Separated from the happening part of downtown by evening-vacant government buildings
Poor optics with downtown
Several homeless shelters just across the highway introduce an element that won't sit well with suburbanites

Star location
Pros
Much more in the thick of things downtown
Vibrant immediate area
Relatively limited business destroyed compared to the rest of the crossroads
Would interact well with South Loop Cap park

Cons
Would destroy businesses and part of KC's built environment
Could be difficult to gain control of the land. Could drive up the cost.
Parking. Not only lack of parking but also the potential to create more surface lots in the Crossroads
Creates a dead zone in an already vibrant area in the offseason and when not in use during the season (although this could be alleviated by building outwardly facing venues into the stadium perimeter)
Missed opportunity to develop the East Village sea of parking

I think East Village is the easy and very expedient thing to do. But it's the downtown version of TSC 50 years ago. Kind of a high risk venture. Expedience should not drive every decision. I am really torn on this one because I hate to see businesses that have established themselves in the crossroads being destroyed.

The Crossroads is definitely the better location but it's also the more painful location due to killing local businesses in the area and the loss of opportunity at EV.

[KC_Ari]

If it wasn't so far West in the East Crossroads and was more focused on between Locust and Charlotte, It would be such an easy sell. You end up being roughly the same distance from P+L/Streetcar as the EV site, but it would feel much closer to more active parts of the Crossroads to the south.

Edit: That is due to much more of that block being surface lots, and I think still captures the Uhaul facility. If I remember right. You do lose the Truman though.

[KC_Ari]

If the Royals do take the Crossroads site then there should be a full on pressure campaign *immediately* to put Sporting KC or the Chiefs in the East Village spot.

Please god don’t plop an NFL stadium anywhere within the downtown area. Talk about an energy suck

Agreed. I don't see how anyone could want an NFL stadium in an urban setting. Especially a team with the Chief's tailgating culture.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

something like a museum could be awesome in terms of diversifying who's here, when, and why and creating a stronger customer base for surrounding businesses.

I’ve been arguing that at some point Union Station is going to have to give Science City an eviction notice to actually flesh out train platforms again, especially if we want regional and metro spanning rail. This would be a glorious landing site for them, and provide a little more engagement on that side of town, and hopefully a more well rounded mix of businesses surrounding.

[GRID]

If the Royals do take the Crossroads site then there should be a full on pressure campaign *immediately* to put Sporting KC or the Chiefs in the East Village spot.

Please god don’t plop an NFL stadium anywhere within the downtown area. Talk about an energy suck

Agree 100%. NFL needs to stay where it is and I don't see the Chiefs even wanting to move downtown.

Does this mean there is a chance that Sporting KC is looking at the site???

[GRID]

something like a museum could be awesome in terms of diversifying who's here, when, and why and creating a stronger customer base for surrounding businesses.

I’ve been arguing that at some point Union Station is going to have to give Science City an eviction notice to actually flesh out train platforms again, especially if we want regional and metro spanning rail. This would be a glorious landing site for them, and provide a little more engagement on that side of town, and hopefully a more well rounded mix of businesses surrounding.

That would also require the destruction of one of KC's largest and more modern office buildings, Two Pershing Square. I mean I can see it happening, but not for at least 30 years from now when KC is a much larger and hopefully more dense metro/city.