Bannister Mall/Cerner

[Highlander]

sad, KC got fleeced by Oracle. Bigger issues the lack of leadership within Cerner after founders passed away or stepped down left it rudderless. Another major company goes poof in KC.

I've been to Nashville a lot for business & pleasure. It's a nice city and fun. I'm just not 100% sold on it's appeal. Oh well, I'm just deemed not to get it I guess

It's not just the city (although Nashville is the "sexy" city right now), it's the location and general design of the Oracle offices. Cerner royally fucked that up bad. I mean seriously. Just look at what Cerner built in KC.

Had Cerner done something more like what Oracle has in Nashville or Austin, then Oracle might have treated KC differently. Imagine if Cerner had built up a nice development on the riverfront or an urban campus in the crossroads or a major signature tower or two downtown or something on the plaza. Instead, they built some 1980's office buildings on what looks like a landfill on the side of an interstate far from anything anybody wants to be near. Same with the speedway offices and even the NKC campus.

KC's greatest missed opportunity and it could have far reaching impacts. Cerner thought they were doing something civic minded (?) but I suspect they were drawn mostly by the cheaper construction costs and surface parking opportunities. The office never did anything for SE Kansas City. That never should have been a priority.

[GRID]

^ Yep. My first post after Cerner announced plans to build the innovation campus:

Awesome project. Very happy that Cerner may step up and do this.

But.....

Without a large residential component, this will do NOTHING for South Kansas City. May as well build it downtown and add to critical mass there if this is not a more mixed use and game changing type project that would help stabilize SKC.

Office space alone will do as much for SKC as the office buildings at 435 and Holmes do for SKC. Nothing.

And that was before I figured out that the campus itself would be a fortress that you can't even get close to unless you work there. Once I learned that, I spent the last ten years very loudly hating on this project. I even mentioned many times that Cerner won't last in KC since KC can not hang on to HQ offices. Then what happens to that area when Cerner is bought out???

Here we are in 2023. Basically everything I predicted came true.

Cerner was bought out

They never built anything other than the office component

The project would never see the later stages of development

The project would do absolutely nothing for the SKC area

Once Cerner leaves, it will be difficult to re-lease the space because it's a very outdated type of office working environment, but even so, it will dump millions of sq ft of office space into the market making it impossible to build new space in the KC area, especially downtown.

This project would have been better in an urban core location, but even in this location, a better plan using office space as "part" of a major mixed use project that is walkable, open to the public etc could have truly benefited SKC. The way it was built, they should have just let it go to Kansas and let that area develop into an industrial park.

I still say that had Cerner had a clue what year it was and the kind of cities people want to live in, then Oracle would have probably made KC a bigger part of their company and even if they didn't, the development would likely be much easier to sublease to another major company or turn it into multi-tenant.

[dukuboy1]

At least the NKC campus, which was the OG world HQ for many years was an ok campus, next to a hospital and surrounded by trees & green space. Plus relatively close to downtown. Higher floors you can see downtown sky line. The KC campus was office towers at least by something.

In hind site, the big gaffe was the Bannister Mall site. That never materialized at all and I'm glad it was something in that vast wasteland or demolished buildings, they should have invest in a downtown Tower to make their mark, not another suburban office complex. And the fact that they already owned the old Marion Chemical HQ down the street from Bannister. Just very poor leadership but they were the golden child then and seemed like a can't miss. Hopefully KC's next generation of business leaders who are growing their business will learn from their mistakes and understand that investing downtown for office space will be the way to go.

[shaffe]

There's a thread elsewhere on this board titled "Is Midtown Marketplace one of the city's greatest blunders?". I'm of the personal opinion that this project may just be the biggest - especially in the last quarter century or so.

[Highlander]

Hopefully KC's next generation of business leaders who are growing their business will learn from their mistakes and understand that investing downtown for office space will be the way to go.

I think it's in our DNA. I don't know who all the up and coming companies are in KC presently but two hopefuls (Shamrock and Creative Planning) are very much established in Johnson County. Shamrock is presently expanding their campus at 95th and Metcalf.

I am hoping that Oracle somehow decides to stay in KC and eventually moves downtown. Most home-grown companies that spring up in the metro seem to love the burbs for whatever reason. I doubt if Oracle stays given their large presence in Austin and Nashville but it would be great for a new entrant with a more cosmopolitan attitude to invest in downtown. Would be a nice jump start.

[chingon]

Digging in the vault...

At some point somebody just needs to commit political suicide in an honorable way and confess that the best thing for the city to do is throw in the towel and quit dumping money into the infrastructure for an ex mall. Tear out all the streets and asphalt, move that fire station so it's within a half mile of an actual neighborhood, sow the land with native grass and move on.

[dukuboy1]

Hopefully KC's next generation of business leaders who are growing their business will learn from their mistakes and understand that investing downtown for office space will be the way to go.

I think it's in our DNA. I don't know who all the up and coming companies are in KC presently but two hopefuls (Shamrock and Creative Planning) are very much established in Johnson County. Shamrock is presently expanding their campus at 95th and Metcalf.

I am hoping that Oracle somehow decides to stay in KC and eventually moves downtown. Most home-grown companies that spring up in the metro seem to love the burbs for whatever reason. I doubt if Oracle stays given their large presence in Austin and Nashville but it would be great for a new entrant with a more cosmopolitan attitude to invest in downtown. Would be a nice jump start.

Those are 2 good ones for sure. However with their investment in suburban campuses as such tell the story, and relocating to the MO side would be a whole "border war" thing. I think we have to look at companies in KC or on the MO side now. Maybe a smaller company in KS that is looking to get bigger could make the jump before they are big to the MO. But also changing company from KS to MO is kind of a big deal legally and logistically.

1 company I could see that might make a Downtown HQ is NorthPoint development. They just moved into the OG Farmland HQ on N. Oak, a top a hill that you can see the skyline from. They might be a good choice if they continue their growth which has been robust.

[Cratedigger]

Own one of the most iconic KC buildings too
(KCP&L building)

[FangKC]

The office tower is built, so we can't change that. There is a possibility that Oracle might pull out of KC and sell the tower. They could also reduce staff in KC, but still keep a presence. In that case, the would likely also sell the building and do a lease-back with reduced sq. footage. If that happens, there might be an opportunity to develop the parking lots around the tower into a denser residential neighborhood. What might work well is to fill the tower will multiple small companies with a significant work-from-home employee base. The tower would be the mother ship so to speak. Make the neighborhood attractive to WFH employees. They do their jobs mostly in their homes but are within just a few minutes of walking to go into the office to see managers and attend meetings.

[GRID]

^ you do know that there are four towers (mid rises) right?

I don't see Oracle developing the parking lots. That area is basically going to pretty much stay how it is now for probably 20 years. The best that might happen is the vacant land is sold and developed, but that's probably ten plus years out.

[Highlander]

The office tower is built, so we can't change that. There is a possibility that Oracle might pull out of KC and sell the tower. They could also reduce staff in KC, but still keep a presence. In that case, the would likely also sell the building and do a lease-back with reduced sq. footage.

Not sure who would buy the towers out there. Doesn't seem like a good investment as the demand for office space in SE KC is not high and probably never will be.

If Oracle does leave, I kind of agree with Chingon's earlier assessment. Probably the best use of the extensive parking lots is an industrial park. At least that way, there would be an infusion of land available closer into the city and new industrial construction doesn't have to involve eating up farmland at the periphery of the city.

[mgsports]

Arena? Menards? Meijer?

[DMNBT_RCJH]

Well. Larry Ellison annd Oracle officially (writing has been on the wall for some time) announcing HQ in Nashville. I doubt they spend another dollar in KC.

A tragic end for Oracle Cerner and what was at one point a great KC Company. But hey! At least Dr. Feinberg was able to purchase The Weeknd’s penthouse in LA out of the whole ordeal.

KC remains a back office city, and should probably only actively recruit as such.

[GRID]

The Bannister Mall plan is coming up for review in front of the TIF Commission.

I still think this plan should include dense residential housing to be successful long-term. Otherwise, we will be back at the same place in 25 years.

Should we be writing the TIF Commission to voice this point-of-view?

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2011/04/12/kansas-city-tif-commission-bannister.html?ed=2011-04-12&s=article_du&ana=e_du_pub

25 years?  Without a major residential component, the new development will be lucky to reach 10 years before blight sets back in.

I called it. From day one, I said this was a terrible plan, so bad that it would ultimately cost KC this HQ in any sort of merger. Nobody is going to pick South KC over a place like Nashville for a corporate HQ right now. Sad thing is, I really think if Cerner had built something more modern, Oracle might have put more emphasis into KC. But even if they didn't, KC would be left with a development that could easily be flipped into another HQ or a multi tenant office component.

Well, it's been about ten years since the first phase has opened. How is that are doing today? What a fucking disaster. Who is going to do anything with property now?

Those buildings should either be in the urban core or in a true modern post 1990 mixed use development.

[Highlander]

The Bannister Mall plan is coming up for review in front of the TIF Commission.

I still think this plan should include dense residential housing to be successful long-term. Otherwise, we will be back at the same place in 25 years.

Should we be writing the TIF Commission to voice this point-of-view?

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2011/04/12/kansas-city-tif-commission-bannister.html?ed=2011-04-12&s=article_du&ana=e_du_pub

25 years?  Without a major residential component, the new development will be lucky to reach 10 years before blight sets back in.

I called it. From day one, I said this was a terrible plan, so bad that it would ultimately cost KC this HQ in any sort of merger. Nobody is going to pick South KC over a place like Nashville for a corporate HQ right now. Sad thing is, I really think if Cerner had built something more modern, Oracle might have put more emphasis into KC. But even if they didn't, KC would be left with a development that could easily be flipped into another HQ or a multi tenant office component.

Well, it's been about ten years since the first phase has opened. How is that are doing today? What a fucking disaster. Who is going to do anything with property now?

Those buildings should either be in the urban core or in a true modern post 1990 mixed use development.

At some point KC's leaders need to learn that the city is spatially too large to try to make something happen in every corner of the city by incentives. It's throwing good money after bad and we do it time and time again. I don't think Cerner was enough critical mass to ever support a mixed development with housing in the SE part of the city. It just wasn't going to happen. There was no other reason other than Cerner itself to be in that part of the city and the complex is too easily accessed from Lees Summit, Johnson County and extreme southern KC (not to mention people coming from more urban living locations) to make it work. I am not sure, however, if Cerner being downtown would have changed anything for Oracle. Their last two moves have been out of California and into the two trendiest cities in the US.

[DMNBT_RCJH]

. Their last two moves have been out of California and into the two trendiest cities in the US.

And to zero income tax states. Of course, if anyone has driven on state maintained roads in Tennessee, you’ll notice that no income tax has consequences.

[alejandro46]

Oracle Health/Cerner has had significant client drain after end of meaningful use. They are competing in a cut-throat industry, and ever since Neal left, leadership has a lack of cohesive vision regarding the product and a corresponding lack of investment to retain good people to build a good product- they have been too busy trying to find the next revenue stream after meaningful use instead of improving the core HIT product.

Moving the HQ really does nothing to solve any problems in the post-covid world. Being "closer to healthcare?" I mean Oracle Health has been losing clients to Epic steadily and really pivoted to Government and smaller hospitals. Do they think Epic gives af about being closer to Clients, they are literally in Verona, WI and I doubt many people not in the HIT space have even vaguely heard of that. If anything, Oracle should move to Washington DC, as that's where their actual recent client/growth has come from LOL.

https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/health ... nue-growth

[Sani]

Did Oracle have their own EMR software before they acquired Cerner?

[dukuboy1]

Nashville scores another employer with Oracle. Curios the impact o the SF area with this announcement. Obviously they were already hit when Oracle moved the HQ to Austin and now it's moving to Nashville. Obviously companies running from the high taxes in CA. But with WFH being so prevalent might as well go where you pay the least in taxes. Nashville is a fine town but it's appeal is pretty limited IMO. It's fun and hip and has the music industry lineage but honestly in all the time I have spent there I was never wildly impressed and thought "man this is the coolest city in America". Really wish city & state leaders could focus in on KC to make big things happen here but honestly the best bet is to cultivate and provide opportunities for up and coming companies to grown into the next Cerner or better yet Cerner(s). Also my guess is Nashville may be left holding the bag after a few years when Oracle jumps ship to the next city who will give them whatever they want.

[GRID]

Nashville is not going anywhere. That city is going to be twice the size of KC in 20-30 years. In just the 1990's, Nashville felt like a city half the city of KC. It's downtown is now already four times the size of KC's and it's not slowing down. It's not my type of city either, but it is what it is.

The problem with KC is the city is on the bubble of being a top 30 metro. I think once you drop too far out of the top 30, you quickly become irrelevant in America. KC was in the top 20 as recent at the 1950's. KC has changed a lot for KC, but it has barely changed at all relative to the vast majority of cities in America in the past 30 years. Even today, KC is just not focused enough on the "city". Too much of KC is in the suburbs and even worse, in Kansas now.

This is why things like keeping the Royals are important. KC is sort of at a fork in the road right now where it could turn things around, but it could also become a fourth tier city very easily.

But then again, KC has been at a fork in the road now for close to 20 years and has been unable to get over the hump. KC doesn't need to grow l like Nashville, but it has to do a lot better than most rustbelt and midwest cities. And it should. KC is not in the heart of the rust belt, it has a lot of the same characteristics as the faster growing cities in the south, and west.

To me, KC feels like a smaller and smaller city every year. It's just not keeping up. And most people there don't realize that.

There is a real chance that cities like OKC and even Omaha catch up to KC in the coming decades.