5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

[langosta]

Why are John’s posts displayed without formatting? They’re turning unreadable

I have skimmed this thread and I think John just has a case of car/suburban brain. Yes, most of the customers come from outside downtown but as pointed to by many, they can and do ride the streetcar or walk into the River Market. More adjacent residents will drive traffic 24/7/365 traffic to support neighborhood businesses and that will mean that business type and style will change. I think most venues can stay but there will be a point where the once-a-week stall gets replaced by a daily tenant (positive changes for all). Something the market does lack is an outward presence.


Something I heard from a developer on the east coat once was: smaller the store, the farther one is willing to drive to visit it. The larger the store, the less far they are willing to drive. That is very true of the river market. JoCo residents drive to RM for something that isn't a JoCo car experience. The less JoCo like you make downtown, the more that will want to come on the weekends (and you add consistent week day traffic also).

[alejandro46]

FWIW, took the streetcar and walked all through RM this evening at 530pm, Sunday on a holiday weekend.


Counted 15+ street parking spots and tons of open parking spaces in lots throughout the area. Decent crowd at Enzo too, place looks good.

[TheLastGentleman]

FWIW, took the streetcar and walked all through RM this evening at 530pm, Sunday on a holiday weekend.


Counted 15+ street parking spots and tons of open parking spaces in lots throughout the area. Decent crowd at Enzo too, place looks good.

Only 15??? We need at least 5000 more

[trailerkid]

The bigger issue than parking is how the design mostly disrespects the ground level.

[TheUrbanRoo]

It’s in council now. Shop owners having a brain aneurysm over a normal apartment project that would add density & more foot traffic to them.
https://fox4kc.com/news/kansas-city-mee ... t-project/

[KC_Ari]

“We can’t reduce our support for people coming here by car,” Lindahl said. “Ideally it’d be great if we were a transit-oriented city, but we’re not there yet.” - That's how we start getting there people...

[smh]

The bigger issue than parking is how the design mostly disrespects the ground level.

It seems pretty good, right? Activity along the park, activity along 5th. This is a good ground floor imho, what are you noticing?

[trailerkid]

The bigger issue than parking is how the design mostly disrespects the ground level.

It seems pretty good, right? Activity along the park, activity along 5th. This is a good ground floor imho, what are you noticing?

The massive blank parking garage wall on the ground floor directly adjacent to Minsky's City Market on E. 5th Street and facing the streetcar ^
How many sides of the building at street level are dead walls opposed to active spaces? Why don't they have renderings that clearly show the street level?

This project is located in one of the most high profile empty lots in the urban core and is being developed through a quasi-public entity. I find it odd that even with those conditions, KCMO still cannot get a decent example of how to do a mixed use project, pedestrian-oriented project. Maybe stop looking for Indy real estate investors for 'infill' projects.

We need to see the incredible value of this particular property to the neighborhood. Clearly, parking is valued by the small businesses around it. But what if the new development actually brought more business through adding a slew of new retail/restaurant options to the area in addition to new housing? Why not something with retail of the caliber of Chelsea Market on its ground level that ties into the existing City Market retail? Look at the way the Grove in LA blends into its legacy food court area.

The real estate developers here are extracting more from the River Market than they are adding to it.

[langosta]

I thought that was double height lobby and retail. Could be wrong

[GRID]

That garage looks hideous. What happened to the original plans? I know you can't have retail on every development, but if there was a development and location that should have retail on the ground floor on that street across from the streetcar stop, it would be this one.

[Chris Stritzel]

I thought that was double height lobby and retail. Could be wrong

The 5th Street side has 2-levels of commercial space there. One at Floor 0 and another at Floor 1.5.

The Main Street (east) elevation is just parking garage till you get to what would be 4th Street. In that case, you have the building lobby and a small retail bay. The east elevation is of concern but that acts as a de-facto alley anyways. Frontage facing the park/4th and 5th is accounted for and adequate.

West elevation just faces the western alley. Nothing too special needs to be done there.

[Chris Stritzel]

It’s in council now. Shop owners having a brain aneurysm over a normal apartment project that would add density & more foot traffic to them.
https://fox4kc.com/news/kansas-city-mee ... t-project/

“We can’t reduce our support for people coming here by car,” Lindahl said. “Ideally it’d be great if we were a transit-oriented city, but we’re not there yet.” - That's how we start getting there people...

Even if KC never gets to be a true multi-modal city where cars are optional, some River Market business owners need to realize that their neighborhood is in for hundreds of new residents over the coming years thanks to these projects:
- City Harvest
- Atlas 303
- Oaks (formerly Ashland)
- 3rd and Grand
- 1st and Grand
- 3rd and Oak (if it returns)
- Southern corners of 5th and Main (if they return)

Throw in what's happening at Berkley Park, in Downtown, on the Streetcar extension, and the friends and family that River Market residents will have over, and the number of potential customers balloons to potentially tens of thousands.

While I understand their concerns, they need to think in larger terms than customers coming by car. Increased population density means a higher likelihood that your customers will arrive without cars. And more residents and businesses are how we get to a critical mass where everything one would want is a short walk or bike ride away.

We don't even need transit expansion to justify getting people out of their cars and into businesses, we just need denser neighborhoods.

[TheUrbanRoo]

The building is fine. I've been on here for a few years now and seen this same cycle happen with every single building or project.

It's always "this building is terrible! What a massive waste of an opportunity. This will go down as one of the greatest blunders!" or something. Then as the project is built, the opinion slowly shifts until opening day arrives and they go "oh nevermind this is actually good". Then the process repeats again with the next project.

In my time on here I've seen this exact cycle play out with Waddell Reed, Three Light, the new Airport, and now it's starting with this building & that other one at 14th & Main. Based on the way this "process" usually ends up I'm betting this building will be good.

Sorry for the rant, I just get so annoyed seeing this same cycle & process play out over and over again with the same result.

[trailerkid]

It's always "this building is terrible! What a massive waste of an opportunity. This will go down as one of the greatest blunders!" or something. Then as the project is built, the opinion slowly shifts until opening day arrives and they go "oh nevermind this is actually good". Then the process repeats again with the next project.

In my time on here I've seen this exact cycle play out with Waddell Reed, Three Light, the new Airport, and now it's starting with this building & that other one at 14th & Main. Based on the way this "process" usually ends up I'm betting this building will be good.

Kansas City has pretty much ignored all urban design best practices for ground levels of the last few decades in favor of subsidizing blank walls for parking or office windows. It's almost like if we cover our ears and just keep shouting "INFILL!" as we speed away from the parking garage, we think everything will work out. Part of the reason you think things are "fine" is because we'll never actually see how much better things could be because they never get built to higher standards.

I would not even comment on this design if it was in the West Bottoms. It's not.

THE PROJECT IS ADJOINING THE CITY MARKET.

Let me state that again: it's a development project that is basically attached to the City Market. The City Market is one of the most popular places to visit in KC and the region...and could be even better with elevated neighbors that enhance and build on the existing energy. This is the location for that. I would imagine many retail developers would love to have the ground floor here.

Kansas City continues to treat itself like we're the ugly girl at the party.

At this point, the City Market / River Market could elevate itself to be something greater than it is today OR it can be "fine" as you stated and concentrate on infill with blank walls. It seems the decision is already made. Sadly, once it's built we're stuck with it.

If the aborted W&R HQ is your gold standard, that says a lot.

[beautyfromashes]

Kansas City has pretty much ignored all urban design best practices for ground levels of the last few decades in favor of subsidizing blank walls for parking or office windows. It's almost like if we cover our ears and just keep shouting "INFILL!" as we speed away from the parking garage, we think everything will work out. Part of the reason you think things are "fine" is because we'll never actually see how much better things could be because they never get built to higher standards.

Yes, but in this particular case, you have retail people complaining about parking and the building taking too much of it. So, the developer can't really make everyone happy. They either take parking spaces to build out retail and anger the businesses in the area or you leave all the parking spaces you can build and anger the residents in the area who want places to be. Can't win either way.

[trailerkid]

Kansas City has pretty much ignored all urban design best practices for ground levels of the last few decades in favor of subsidizing blank walls for parking or office windows. It's almost like if we cover our ears and just keep shouting "INFILL!" as we speed away from the parking garage, we think everything will work out. Part of the reason you think things are "fine" is because we'll never actually see how much better things could be because they never get built to higher standards.

Yes, but in this particular case, you have retail people complaining about parking and the building taking too much of it. So, the developer can't really make everyone happy. They either take parking spaces to build out retail and anger the businesses in the area or you leave all the parking spaces you can build and anger the residents in the area who want places to be. Can't win either way.

Who is "winning" with the proposed design besides the Indy real estate investors?

Why can't the parking go above new ground floor retail?

[KC_Ari]

My only issue with turning that reactivated portion of main street into shops is the current streetscape on the other side. Maybe there is a good way to clean that up, but I don't think it makes an inviting area for pedestrians with the loading docks and shop employee entrances in the current state. The City Market shops will still need access to that area for deliveries, etc.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1089804 ... 312!8i6656

I don't think this project is nearly as egregiously bad as Centropolis or 1400KC and I'm interested in seeing ways this one could improve. I just don't see it immediately.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

Kansas City has pretty much ignored all urban design best practices for ground levels of the last few decades in favor of subsidizing blank walls for parking or office windows. It's almost like if we cover our ears and just keep shouting "INFILL!" as we speed away from the parking garage, we think everything will work out. Part of the reason you think things are "fine" is because we'll never actually see how much better things could be because they never get built to higher standards.

Yes, but in this particular case, you have retail people complaining about parking and the building taking too much of it. So, the developer can't really make everyone happy. They either take parking spaces to build out retail and anger the businesses in the area or you leave all the parking spaces you can build and anger the residents in the area who want places to be. Can't win either way.

Who is "winning" with the proposed design besides the Indy real estate investors?

Why can't the parking go above new ground floor retail?

At the end of the day, no developer wants to build parking, it’s a financial drain for them. Trust me when I say the only people “winning” with more parking on the business owners bitch about it.

[missingkc]

Damn them carpetbaggin' Indy investors! Trailerkid, do you realize how parochial you sound? This is a perennial complaint in KC. KC hates outsiders. All the while out of town developers - MAC, Cordish, Lux and others move this city forward while homegrown owners/developers - Price, Tower, Copaken and others - sit on valuable land and do nothing with it.

[trailerkid]

Damn them carpetbaggin' Indy investors! Trailerkid, do you realize how parochial you sound? This is a perennial complaint in KC. KC hates outsiders. All the while out of town developers - MAC, Cordish, Lux and others move this city forward

Where are real estate investors moving KC specifically?