5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

[KCPowercat]

Appreciate the insight. This Harvest project isn't going to get rid of all RM parking though and the other developments of our surface lots have plans for parking replacement. Obviously KC is never going to get away from having to accommodate drivers.

This is a real shame if this is killed, RM has an abundance of parking. I assume the council is just going to blow by a split recommendation from CPC when staff is approving.

[Chris Stritzel]

If more parking is insisted, I think the incentives would have to be increased which might push this back further.

[rxlexi]

Not sure why the developers can't drop the affordable component and add another floor or two of structured parking? Or request some city help in adding it? Seems like a solution shouldn't be super difficult here - this project is way too beneficial to let die on the vine.

As much I firmly believe folks will adapt to the loss of parking, and park just a bit further away and walk to the center of the market (as many already do), this is a legitimate spot for central paid public parking, especially for those vendors on the interior of the market. It could/should be priced high relative to other lots in the area, but the perception of visible and easily accessible parking is valuable for market weekends, even if it is expensive and full.

[cityscenekc]

This project is not dead. The City Plan Commission is an advisory body, the City Council has the final decision. When I talked to the developer, I didn't detect any note of panic. https://cityscenekc.com/river-market-pa ... ent-tower/

[Cratedigger]

Thanks for the post and perspective John. Welcome to the Rag.

There just has to be a way to manage parking more efficiently in KC. Especially an area like the River Market. Maybe something like SFPark?

If every lot in the RM has a project planned for it, we could require sensors in the public spaces to provide real-time data on parking availability and adjust prices accordingly.

[CrossroadsUrbanApts]

Can anyone think of an example of an urban area that became less attractive for small businesses because parking was replaced by residents, hotels or offices? I can emotionally understand the fear of small business owners that they will see fewer customers if there is less parking. But is there any evidence of something like that occurring? My sense is that urban areas that replace surface parking lots with new residents and shops actually see more visitors (customers) because the visitor experience is so much better. Plus the potential for new residents to increase weekday sales.

It also recalls to me the concerns that many business owners made about the streetcar line before it was built, and it took actual experience to change minds to see that the end result was so much better than the pre-streetcar status quo.

I very much appreciate John's contribution but would be helpful if the concern could be backed up with some examples of bad outcomes elsewhere from replacing surface parking with activated uses.

[earthling]

Can appreciate John's concern but if a business is highly reliant on customers elsewhere in metro via car, perhaps those businesses should move away from the streetcar line. Can still be in the city or even downtown but find a more appropriate location that caters better to cars. 99% of the metro caters to cars, the streetcar line should not (and a couple blocks within it).

[TheUrbanRoo]

The more likely result is that a.) the same cars will just relocate to park somewhere else in the city and then take streetcar to RM
b.) you then also have hundreds of new people permanently next to the stores to use them

We’re also talking about this at a time when City Harvest will open (2025) tons of Midtown & Plaza residents like myself will be going to RM more often because we have free streetcar access now, could make up for any “losses”. As the streetcar grows we should keep transit orienting with it.

[beautyfromashes]

Man, it's hard to change, especially as a business. Once you've created something that generates a good return and becomes second nature it's hard to take the jump to modify that formula and spend the money to do it. Instead, most business owners will dig in and protect their cash cow with everything they have. No one should be belittled for that. It's their life.

I will say, that if John decides to modify his business to be more locally focused, even if it's not perfect at first, I and others on here would do all we could to support it. In the end, having a business that churns consistent business every day of the week is better than one that sees a rush just on Saturday. Best of luck John in your businesses future.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

I understand how great more people living downtown is. That said let me give you some insight as I'm a, long time, River Market merchant. 75% of my sales are made on the weekends. My credit card sales tell me that 85% of my customers come from outside of the area. That means that they, most likely, come by car. No parking means they won't stop, which means I don't make money, which means you're going to lose those quant restaurants and shops that make the River Market unique. I can tell you that my business is not an exception to these numbers. This Harvest Project got in the door by saying they would replace the 160 parking spaces that they were taking. When everyone got excited about the idea they came back and said "well we can't do it, but we'll give you 20 spaces, on the street". Just a side note; every city owned parking lot in the River market has plans for an apartment project on it. All those projects will expect the same deal. The River Market is filled with individual small business owners. We have made lots of friends in the community. We love having a business there. We welcome new growth. But we also need those parking spaces to stay in business. I'm just offering up the small business side of this discussion.

As an inquiry to this John, if customers are coming from outside the area, and from further reaches of the Metro, wouldn’t that mean they’ve made the deliberate decision to patronize the Market regardless? Not having parking directly adjacent to the market wouldn’t cancel a trip all together, at least it shouldn’t for the vast majority of folks coming in.

The North Loop lots are exceptional at providing suburbanites and exurbanites abundant, free, all day safe parking adjacent to the River Market, as its only about 3 blocks away. The streetcar provides the connection too and from, or it can be walked. The best thing that can be done for this as well is to heavily market it, online, wether on RM Socials, website, or with physical signage put up to help. I know they put out signs currently, but adding some larger, more highway visible ones might be a good bet.

Providing another boost in local population that will patronize your business on those off days outside of Market weekends would also likely more than make up for people deterred by the lack of immediately adjacent parking.

None of this is to refute your experience here, or to say that you’re incorrect in your statements. I’m merely just trying to provide some other angles with which to look at this situation. Would love to hear your thoughts on the above, and wether or not you think these factors/parameters could help to solve this conundrum.

Finally, It’s great to have business owners here to really give us a feel for the neighborhood. Keep up the engagement!

[FlippantCitizen]

There needs to be a massive public education campaign and marketing campaign about the availability of free parking on weekends in some of those North Loop lots. They are never full even on busy Saturdays and there is an abundance of street parking on 7th as well that is rarely being heavily utilized. Yet I see people on reddit recommending people to park at Union Station (where you have to pay to park too) and take the streetcar. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I see that as a recommendation or see people circling RM looking for a spot. Folks... there is a massive amount of free parking a literal quarter mile away which if you are unable or disinclined to walk, there it a free shuttle!

The few times I drove a car up for the farmer's market over the past summer on a weekend, I never even entered the RM neighborhood with my car always parking on 7th street, and my mental health was better for it. I took the bus a few times but often rode my motorcycle and just slipped it in to a street spot between two cars. Later on in the later summer or fall I got an e-bike and recently outfitted it better for cargo and child carrying capacity, so that will be my main go-to next summer.

Suburbanites need to park in the North Loop, urban residents need to mode shift away from personal four wheel conveyance to transit, cycle, walk, and other micro mobility. Cars are the problem in RM. Congestion is actually keeping people away. There needs to be public education about how to visit RM without bringing your car into the neighborhood. It is easy easy easy. People just need a little help on knowing how best to do it.

[DaveKCMO]

This isn't about evidence, facts, or policy -- it's about emotion. Welcome to Kansas City!

[dukuboy1]

Just a question for my own reference. This project is slated to go up in the larger parking lot that is just West of the Minsky's there correct? That is the "bigger lot" that serves the area, along with the surface parking on the East side of the Steamboat place. And during the week the Farmer's Market stalls serve parking just not on SAT until after a certain time I believe. Plus there is a parking garage over there North of the street car stop on 3rd st (but that may be closed I think) and various street spots around the area.

I guess I would ask, what is the plan for the 2 surface lots directly South of the lot in question. I know there are 2 surface lots there that serve parking for the businesses as well as residents for the apartments near by. Any chance the city looks to put up a Public lot on the lot to the SW? Kind of like what they did to help address parking issues for people in the Crossroads over by Lulu Noodles and places in that corner?

I have no idea the property owner situation but could there be some compromise to try to make a surface lot a garage and accommodate spaces by going vertical? If foot print is an issue place like NYC, Chicago have come up with solutions like Valet parking where you care goes into an elevator and they find a space and when you are ready to get it back they go retrieve it.

Just have to figure out ways to make it work. Yes more residents will help create more stable business M-F and the weekend will see the boom as others visit the area routinely. I just think the City should look at this as what can we do to improve the livelihood of the area by increasing residents and providing for outside visitors. The ricer Market is a destination in KC, let's go ahead and look it win/win as such. It seems that everything we chat about is black & white, life is about compromise

[JohnKCMO]

I get it. Everyone who lives in the River Market hate the gridlock and packed streets during a Summer Saturday. But it's only that way because people are looking for places to park. If my business relies heavily on weekend sales, and every single retailer in the downtown metro area does, how do you think that the 100+ year old farmers market is going to fair? There would need to be twice the population density in the local area for them not to rely on outside shoppers. I would hope that no one would want the Farmers Market or the City Market to fade away. They can build all the apartments they want. I'm all for it. But they aren't taking away a single parking space. They are just turning them over to the apartment occupants and taking them away from the public. I would much rather have that space that turns over several times a day than to give it one person who may shop my store once in a while.

[beautyfromashes]

I get it. Everyone who lives in the River Market hate the gridlock and packed streets during a Summer Saturday. But it's only that way because people are looking for places to park. If my business relies heavily on weekend sales, and every single retailer in the downtown metro area does, how do you think that the 100+ year old farmers market is going to fair? There would need to be twice the population density in the local area for them not to rely on outside shoppers. I would hope that no one would want the Farmers Market or the City Market to fade away. They can build all the apartments they want. I'm all for it. But they aren't taking away a single parking space. They are just turning them over to the apartment occupants and taking them away from the public. I would much rather have that space that turns over several times a day than to give it one person who may shop my store once in a while.

I can tell you, once the streetcar extension comes online, I’ll be at the market much more. I probably would even use a daily produce stand if there was one. Other new residents would as well and they’d take zero parking spaces. You have to decide if you want the one-time business or the daily incremental business. The latter would be more secure and predictable.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I get it. Everyone who lives in the River Market hate the gridlock and packed streets during a Summer Saturday. But it's only that way because people are looking for places to park. If my business relies heavily on weekend sales, and every single retailer in the downtown metro area does, how do you think that the 100+ year old farmers market is going to fair? There would need to be twice the population density in the local area for them not to rely on outside shoppers. I would hope that no one would want the Farmers Market or the City Market to fade away. They can build all the apartments they want. I'm all for it. But they aren't taking away a single parking space. They are just turning them over to the apartment occupants and taking them away from the public. I would much rather have that space that turns over several times a day than to give it one person who may shop my store once in a while.

I can tell you, once the streetcar extension comes online, I’ll be at the market much more. I probably would even use a daily produce stand if there was one. Other new residents would as well and they’d take zero parking spaces. You have to decide if you want the one-time business or the daily incremental business. The latter would be more secure and predictable.

This is what I'm saying as well. Once the streetcar is running down Main soon, I'll be going to the RM & downtown in general much more often than I do now (Plaza resident). It's just a pain currently to have to find a free parking spot so I don't go as often. I assume the same with many others in the urban core. Hope that can be some optimism going forward.

[langosta]

Just because customers come from the suburbs does not mean they need to park within a 5 step walk of the front door.

[KCPowercat]

More residents (in this building) makes it so business don't have to rely on the weekend outside the neighborhood business. That's 7 days a week not 2!

Not discounting a business owner's hesitation here. I can see the concern. I just think need to give the customers more credit. People easily park in other lots and further out and keep doing it. City Market and businesses like his are a draw that make it a destination people see value in parking a little further out. They do it today.

[TheLastGentleman]

The river market businesses complaining about parking should put their money where their mouth is and demolish themselves for their precious parking

[FangKC]

Not sure why the developers can't drop the affordable component and add another floor or two of structured parking? Or request some city help in adding it? Seems like a solution shouldn't be super difficult here - this project is way too beneficial to let die on the vine.

As much I firmly believe folks will adapt to the loss of parking, and park just a bit further away and walk to the center of the market (as many already do), this is a legitimate spot for central paid public parking, especially for those vendors on the interior of the market. It could/should be priced high relative to other lots in the area, but the perception of visible and easily accessible parking is valuable for market weekends, even if it is expensive and full.

I don't think they can drop the affordable component because the parking lot in the City's request-for-proposal would have to meet the City's own ordinance about projects getting any city subsidies having to meet the affordable housing requirement. The only way for the development to go forward without the affordable component would be for the developer to pay a fair market rate for the land, and not ask for any subsidies to build the structure. I don't think they can build any structured parking spaces for that building and provide free area parking without some subsidies. I also think it's a political no-go for the City to even sell the land to a developer to build higher-end housing -- even without a subsidy -- at a time when there is such a great need for affordable housing. The affordable housing proponents would say the City should be using its land parcels to build that housing -- not sell them off for "luxury housing."