Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

[normalthings]

There are modern buildings in Spain that maintain the Mediterranean aesthetic. It's about the use of tile, brick, stone, terra cotta, ornament, metal, stucco, patterns, and color.

I find it interesting that the developer who wants to build the new restaurants is criticizing Taubman for having empty retail spaces. Wouldn't the solution simply be to convert the empty existing retail spaces into restaurants instead of constructing new retail buildings that would compete? Isn't what is needed for any new construction on the Plaza simply residential buildings?

https://www.hines.com/properties/preciados-13-madrid

https://www.fotocasa.es/en/buy/new-home ... l/19701798

https://www.realia.es/en/realia-la-nori ... t-shooping

Excellent point.

May not be able to fit enough residential into an "acceptable" height. ie may need to build a tower if residential

[FangKC]

There are modern buildings in Spain that maintain the Mediterranean aesthetic. It's about the use of tile, brick, stone, terra cotta, ornament, metal, stucco, patterns, and color.

I find it interesting that the developer who wants to build the new restaurants is criticizing Taubman for having empty retail spaces. Wouldn't the solution simply be to convert the empty existing retail spaces into restaurants instead of constructing new retail buildings that would compete? Isn't what is needed for any new construction on the Plaza simply residential buildings?

May not be able to fit enough residential into an "acceptable" height. ie may need to build a tower if residential

Why not? A 6-story apartment building with retail slots in the base, a lobby, one basement level of parking and perhaps another small parking deck behind the apartment building, and 4-stories of apartments would work there. Most of the parking would be dedicated to the few apartments there -- probably 24 apartments. A few extra spots for retail managers.



What makes this site so special that it requires a tower? First of all, any tower proposal will get a big fight. Plaza protectors will already be pissed off about losing the church.

https://www.historickansascity.org/hist ... -proposal/

Secondly, you can't create much parking onsite to service a tower because the parcel is small.

Many recent apartment developments have not been more than 6-stories, some less, and some of them are in Greater Downtown, as well as inside the Business Loop.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0987428 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0899932 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.090446, ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.107134 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1087854 ... 312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1002024 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0836172 ... a=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1016176 ... a=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.078108, ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0738489 ... 84!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0725824 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0347623 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0360746 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0441054 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0480494 ... 384!8i8192

Urban Madrid seems to be able to get by with 6-story buildings with retail in the base and apartments above.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/FARMA ... -3.7054402

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4187184 ... 384!8i8192

[AlkaliAxel]

The "Spanish mold" isn't what made the Plaza special.

Maybe in 1927. But in today's world where you have to fight for retail...yeah you need something special like the beautiful Spanish design to keep relevant. Being that far dislocated from downtown you have to have *something* unique like that to standout in the shopping mall world.

If the Plaza didn't have the design it has nobody would go out of their way to eat or hangout or even shop there. People take pictures there all the time and pay a premium to live by it. They're not doing any of that for Town Center or Oak Park Mall. I'm not saying everything new on the Plaza has to be crafted exactly like the 1920's- but it just needs to not stand out and ruin it. For example, building a glass building doesn't fit there. It's looks weird. The only reason you even get your Christmas lights shows and events there is because it's beautifully designed. Otherwise you could just do it at the Crossroads.

Honestly, if it didn't have its beautiful design, I'd prob be advocating to just dump "the Plaza" and move all the retail downtown and try to create as much synergy as possible.

[AlkaliAxel]

I think you can build new modern development while also maintaining the spanish charm of the plaza. You don't want to make the entire district look fake.

All I'm asking for is just a tan exterior or something giving a nod to the Plaza. I don't care what narrative is pushed out there, the aesthetic is what keeps the Plaza relevant.

Like the proposal from 2018 that was rejected?

You can't tell me this piece of shit fits the mold of the Plaza...at all. This thing belongs in the Crossroads or downtown.

Everything about this rendering is toxic waste. The color is off. It's a modern edgy looking exterior. It doesn't fit the aesthetic at all. This type of crap will ruin the appeal of our Plaza.

It's not even hard to just do a small nod!! See what the proposed 47 Madison did with its tan exterior? Or even the Cocina47 coloring? That's what I would like to see more of (yes I know it has glass) but it's alot closer to what I'd like to see that this absolute turd.

Something that's tan atleast doesn't go brutally to the opposite of the entire design of the Plaza

[moderne]

Taubman is objecting due to height being over Plaza bowl limit and that customers would probable use Taubman owned parking. Drake is also redeveloping the Jack Henry building next door. Despite several earlier renovations and now this one the attempt to make it fit the Plaza Spanish aesthetic is like putting lipstick on a pig.

[beautyfromashes]

Taubman is objecting due to height being over Plaza bowl limit and that customers would probable use Taubman owned parking. Drake is also redeveloping the Jack Henry building next door. Despite several earlier renovations and now this one the attempt to make it fit the Plaza Spanish aesthetic is like putting lipstick on a pig.

This one is definitely a pig. Just not very nice to look at.

[chaglang]

I agree with all this except the only thing I’m worried about is that these newer buildings aren’t keeping up with the Spanish mold.

And I’m telling you, if we let that Spanish design fade away, then it becomes no different than shopping at Town Center or Oak Park Mall. We’re letting what makes the Plaza special just slowly erase.

The "Spanish mold" isn't what made the Plaza special. It was a walkable area that was clean and vibrant with unique shops that caught your attention so you had to go inside and find out what they were. It was bars full of people and you didn't really care what they looked like on the inside or outside. Sticking some spanish tile on the outside of a Cheesecake Factory doesn't do fuck. Self edit: it wasn't clean. We didn't care.

Agreed. The church this building would replace isn't at all Spanish but is seen by HKC as an integral part of the Plaza. So clearly the style doesn't matter that much.

Making this building look like Real Alcazar (the palace in Sevilla, not the apartments on 39th) wouldn't do a thing to make the Plaza relevant. The relevance of the district is in how integral it is to the daily lives of those who live around it. The design was just a way to unify the look. If anything, the relevance of the Plaza has steadily declined over the past 50 years, precisely as people have become increasingly rigid about the aesthetics of the buildings.

[AlkaliAxel]

You can keep telling yourselves the Plaza’s designs & fountains etc don’t have any importance but no matter how many times you say it, it’s not true.

[daGOAT]

You can keep telling yourselves the Plaza’s designs and fountains, etc don’t have any importance but no matter how many times you say it, it’s not true.

I agree the look is the only thing that makes the Plaza special, besides being an historic first. Without the architecture, creek, and fountains, and amazing South Plaza skyline it's not more than an outdoor shopping mall.

[FangKC]

The Plaza has outlasted numerous shopping centers in the Metro. Many of which have since been demolished.

[AlkaliAxel]

You can keep telling yourselves the Plaza’s designs and fountains, etc don’t have any importance but no matter how many times you say it, it’s not true.

I agree the look is the only thing that makes the Plaza special, besides being an historic first. Without the architecture, creek, and fountains, and amazing South Plaza skyline it's not more than an outdoor shopping mall.

Yeah, I mean I can't believe we even have to debate this. The Plaza is one of the few places I'd take a visitor because it's one of the few things we have that actually makes people go "Wow"

[normalthings]

There are modern buildings in Spain that maintain the Mediterranean aesthetic. It's about the use of tile, brick, stone, terra cotta, ornament, metal, stucco, patterns, and color.

I find it interesting that the developer who wants to build the new restaurants is criticizing Taubman for having empty retail spaces. Wouldn't the solution simply be to convert the empty existing retail spaces into restaurants instead of constructing new retail buildings that would compete? Isn't what is needed for any new construction on the Plaza simply residential buildings?

May not be able to fit enough residential into an "acceptable" height. ie may need to build a tower if residential

Why not? A 6-story apartment building with retail slots in the base, a lobby, one basement level of parking and perhaps another small parking deck behind the apartment building, and 4-stories of apartments would work there. Most of the parking would be dedicated to the few apartments there -- probably 24 apartments. A few extra spots for retail managers.



What makes this site so special that it requires a tower? First of all, any tower proposal will get a big fight. Plaza protectors will already be pissed off about losing the church.

https://www.historickansascity.org/hist ... -proposal/

Secondly, you can't create much parking onsite to service a tower because the parcel is small.

Many recent apartment developments have not been more than 6-stories, some less, and some of them are in Greater Downtown, as well as inside the Business Loop.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0987428 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0899932 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.090446, ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.107134 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1087854 ... 312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1002024 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0836172 ... a=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1016176 ... a=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.078108, ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0738489 ... 84!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0725824 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0347623 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0360746 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0441054 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0480494 ... 384!8i8192

Urban Madrid seems to be able to get by with 6-story buildings with retail in the base and apartments above.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/FARMA ... -3.7054402

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4187184 ... 384!8i8192

Land price is very very high on the Plaza. Need a lot of rental units to spread that cost around to make the numbers work. An apartment tower there won’t get approved and that’s why I suspect they went with another project they thought would be.

You can’t compare Plaza land to projected completed on much lower value land AND that got incentives.

[daGOAT]

Would love to see a grocery store on the bottom level 6 story apartments up top

A little market with a pharmacy would be clutch.

[beautyfromashes]

You can keep telling yourselves the Plaza’s designs and fountains, etc don’t have any importance but no matter how many times you say it, it’s not true.

I agree the look is the only thing that makes the Plaza special, besides being an historic first. Without the architecture, creek, and fountains, and amazing South Plaza skyline it's not more than an outdoor shopping mall.

Yeah, I mean I can't believe we even have to debate this. The Plaza is one of the few places I'd take a visitor because it's one of the few things we have that actually makes people go "Wow"

Do you consider this development "Spanish"?

[FangKC]

If land prices are so high, then why create a project specifically to house restaurants, which as businesses go, have among the highest start-up costs, and highest failure rates of any type of commercial enterprise?

[chaglang]

You can keep telling yourselves the Plaza’s designs & fountains etc don’t have any importance but no matter how many times you say it, it’s not true.

That's not much of an argument.

But if you're right, we should be able to demolish this church, Unity, and probably two dozen other buildings on the Plaza because they aren't Spanish. Orthodoxy is not interesting, and it's not even what the Plaza is, architecturally. Relevance comes from what's happening in those buildings (at the moment, not much). Architectural interest has degraded over the last 30 years because of the spate of large, newer buildings aiming for a Spanish style and winding up closer to PoMo. The Lockton building might be the worst of the lot, but it definitely checks all the Spanish tile and doodad boxes. If buildings had been allowed to simply reference the context in their own way, without having to tack tile on, the Plaza would be a lot better off.

If you look at the NPS's preservation guidelines, this proposed building is probably just fine, despite its shortcomings. Interesting that HKC always forgets the guideline that new buildings shouldn't attempt to mimic historic buildings.

[chaglang]

Would love to see a grocery store on the bottom level 6 story apartments up top

A little market with a pharmacy would be clutch.

Would definitely help make the area relevant to locals again.

[im2kull]

If land prices are so high, then why create a project specifically to house restaurants, which as businesses go, have among the highest start-up costs, and highest failure rates of any type of commercial enterprise?

Because high end restaurants do quite well. The segment as a whole appears to be worse off because of crap owners and small time operators that have no idea what they're doing and tank. But that isn't true for high end, socially promoted places.

[AlkaliAxel]

You can keep telling yourselves the Plaza’s designs & fountains etc don’t have any importance but no matter how many times you say it, it’s not true.

But if you're right, we should be able to demolish this church, Unity, and probably two dozen other buildings on the Plaza because they aren't Spanish.

That is correct. You can demolish the church for all I care.

My argument is on what we are replacing it with.

Idk why the "character" and feel of a district suddenly became unimportant.

People complain constantly on here about "those DAMN Cordish buildings and their glass look ruining the character!" but then when it's the Plaza where its the most beautiful looking venues we have in this city, suddenly okay to just drop glass buildings without a second thought? This is honestly just insane. Add new buildings if you want, but keep them somewhat in the same scheme and coloring as the rest of it so it doesn't detract.

[AlkaliAxel]

Jack Henry adds new golf entertainment store as a tenant!

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... ncept.html