The Future of Crown Center

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by flyingember » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:19 pm

kcjak wrote:So the odd-shaped, grassy lot where Grand runs into Main? The article makes it sound like there is already a parking structure under and adjacent to the site.
I read that as there being room and the ability to build a garage that big underground. Like someone did the site survey work already in the past.

That's a long distance from the closest garage entrance, and I would expect venting towers visible if a garage went that far.

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by FangKC » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:39 pm

I also think an operative word here is "adjacent" meaning a large garage that could be built across the street behind another building on the SE corner of 27th and Grand.

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by kcjak » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:51 am

Somehow I missed the news that Filling Station was opening a location in the 2460 Pershing building on the lobby level. Saw a blurb at Hallmark that there will rooftop seating, as well. The way the buildings are 'stacked' indicates that would be on top of the garden-level bump out overlooking the grassy areas and Crown Center square.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 82326.html

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by mykn » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:36 pm

kcjak wrote:Somehow I missed the news that Filling Station was opening a location in the 2460 Pershing building on the lobby level. Saw a blurb at Hallmark that there will rooftop seating, as well. The way the buildings are 'stacked' indicates that would be on top of the garden-level bump out overlooking the grassy areas and Crown Center square.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 82326.html
From the article:

The Filling Station also is partnering with Josh Eans of Happy Gillis Cafe & Hangout and Columbus Park Ramen Shop on a new breakfast and lunch menu for the midtown location to debut in December.

Is there a Josh Eans place opening in Midtown in December that I didn't hear about or is Columbus Park now a part of Midtown?

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by KCtoBrooklyn » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:56 pm

To me that just sounds like a new breakfast menu for the Midtown Filling Station - not a new place.

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by mykn » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:04 pm

KCtoBrooklyn wrote:To me that just sounds like a new breakfast menu for the Midtown Filling Station - not a new place.
I think you’re right. I had a hard time parsing that sentence.

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by Critical_Mass » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:55 pm

So north of 31st (Union Hill / Longfellow) is midtown now?

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by KCtoBrooklyn » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:50 pm

Well Filling Station does call that their "Midtown" location.

I would consider it Midtown, as well. I know that the city includes Union Hill in some of their expanded definitions of Greater Downtown, but I feel like that is pushing it. Longfellow definitely fits in with the rest of Midtown.

I know the official (as much as there is an official) cutoff is 31st, but I think this is a grey area that has more in common with Midtown than Downtown.

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by GRID » Wed May 16, 2018 11:47 am

KC seems to be finally getting a lot of new hotel rooms downtown, but there are still some pretty big flags missing, especially the higher tier brands.

I was just thinking. The Crown Center skyline has barely changed in 20-30 years. A slick 35-45 story hotel like a JW Marriott or Hyatt Grand seems like a good fit for the area. Crown Center needs a modern tower to contrast all the 70's and 80's architecture there.

Image

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by kcjak » Wed May 16, 2018 12:40 pm

Crown Center wouldn't build a large hotel when they struggle to fill the ~1,400 rooms it has during non-convention or event periods.

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by KCLover » Wed May 16, 2018 2:51 pm

The cities that have all of these huge hotels all have most of their large corporations downtown. They fill those rooms with conventions, employees from outside offices coming to town, etc. KC is more spread out with most large corporations outside of the downtown area spread all over town, thus we have a ton of hotels in Overland Park or around the 435 corridor. The other part are cities that attract tourists and we are neither, so I question whether or not we will ever get all of these large flagship hotels that we are missing.

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by brewcrew1000 » Wed May 16, 2018 3:38 pm

I expect the hotel industry to chain in the next 10-20 years unless Airbnb just ends up dying. With the rise of Airbnb younger people and even business travelers want to be in walkable residential/cool neighborhoods. They don't care about large flagship hotels in the business district, and they certainly don't care about some cool modern looking tower, a grand lobby or overpriced restaurants.

I honestly expect hotels to start buying up apartments and Condos in walkable/residential neighborhoods and converting them into something similar to Airbnb, This new brand would basically mimic Airbnb where you don't even have to check in, you just get a key from a lock box or use an app, you also wouldn't have a restaurant or even staff to talk to. Airbnb is creating business opportunities for a lot of people in big cities, people are just buying up apartments or condos and just renting them out, and i honestly think its creating problems in some cities. New Orleans is having a huge problem with this right now.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ai ... d20b811699

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by earthling » Wed May 16, 2018 4:17 pm

There are of course different styles of travelers depending on trip. Some are adventurous who go for AirBNB, some are biz people who just want a practical place like Marriott flags, some want a boutique hotel. I may want any of those depending on type of trip, often wanting to be in walking distance of trip purpose if possible. Others may want to be near airport. When the dust settles, it's just a matter of which type of rooms in a market are overbuilt and die/change or which type has more demand that can cause more development. Downtown KC is short on rooms compared to other cities but KCLover makes a good point there are fewer large biz HQ'd downtown, so...

Will be interesting to see downtown vacancy rates in a few more years after all announced rooms are online. I would expect downtown to do fine with up to 10K rooms, at the expense of some airport hotels.

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by rxlexi » Wed May 16, 2018 4:33 pm

Airbnb still has issues with consistency, and also can't handle the type of large room blocks often necessary for events or conferences. It is not ideal for business travel, nor for cities and neighbors in major affected areas, like the New Orleans example given.

And don't underestimate the value some place on Rewards program points.

There are a couple of interesting hotel startups that take a block of units in a multifamily building, typically downtown or centrally located, and lease as hotel space with a small desk in the main lobby and a number of basic services. This is an interesting and potentially lucrative "third way", wherein the consumer gets a more "special" location with kitchen, balcony etc. that offers more than a hotel room, the developer/owner gets a dependable, leased tenant, and hotel operator takes a cut without the expense of developing/owning the real estate.

The Guild and Why Hotel are a couple examples - whyhotel actually goes in during lease up of a tower, takes several floors, and then slowly phases them out as the building occupancy stabilizes. Cool stuff.

https://theguild.co/

http://whyhotel.com/

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by brewcrew1000 » Wed May 16, 2018 4:38 pm

earthling wrote:There are of course different styles of travelers depending on trip. Some are adventurous who go for AirBNB, some are biz people who just want a practical place like Marriott flags, some want a boutique hotel. I may want any of those depending on type of trip, often wanting to be in walking distance of trip purpose if possible. Others may want to be near airport. When the dust settles, it's just a matter of which type of rooms in a market are overbuilt and die/change or which type has more demand that can cause more development. Downtown KC is short on rooms compared to other cities but KCLover makes a good point there are fewer large biz HQ'd downtown, so...

Will be interesting to see downtown vacancy rates in a few more years after all announced rooms are online. I would expect downtown to do fine with up to 10K rooms, at the expense of some airport hotels.
I think you forgot the most important part and that is price. I was just helping my friend look for hotels in Toronto and Montreal. Average daily hotel night was 350-400 for something like a Marriott or they could get a full condo/apartment with full kitchen, balcony, 2 separate bedrooms with lots of privacy next to restaurants, shops, bars and attraction for $170 a night. If you don't have any kind of hotel loyalty why would anyone choose the hotel?

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by earthling » Wed May 16, 2018 5:16 pm

True but if anything cheaper AirBNB rooms help keep people in the city (that have a city visiting purpose) rather than choosing a cheaper hotel/motel in burbs/airport - same could be said of hostels, which KC lacks. Downtown KC needs a variety of product for a variety of travel purposes, as well of the mix of AirBNB downtown/midtown (and maybe a modern Euro style hostel). I suspect the downtown hotel momentum will hurt the overbuilt airport rooms rather than AirBNB harming downtown hotels, especially now that KCMO has some AirBNB restrictions/conditions. We'll find out in a few more years. Wouldn't think JoCo and downtown rooms really compete much, at least not as much as airport.

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by GRID » Wed May 16, 2018 8:32 pm

brewcrew1000 wrote:
earthling wrote:There are of course different styles of travelers depending on trip. Some are adventurous who go for AirBNB, some are biz people who just want a practical place like Marriott flags, some want a boutique hotel. I may want any of those depending on type of trip, often wanting to be in walking distance of trip purpose if possible. Others may want to be near airport. When the dust settles, it's just a matter of which type of rooms in a market are overbuilt and die/change or which type has more demand that can cause more development. Downtown KC is short on rooms compared to other cities but KCLover makes a good point there are fewer large biz HQ'd downtown, so...

Will be interesting to see downtown vacancy rates in a few more years after all announced rooms are online. I would expect downtown to do fine with up to 10K rooms, at the expense of some airport hotels.
I think you forgot the most important part and that is price. I was just helping my friend look for hotels in Toronto and Montreal. Average daily hotel night was 350-400 for something like a Marriott or they could get a full condo/apartment with full kitchen, balcony, 2 separate bedrooms with lots of privacy next to restaurants, shops, bars and attraction for $170 a night. If you don't have any kind of hotel loyalty why would anyone choose the hotel?
I don't see hotels going away. I travel a lot and use hotels, airbnb, vrbo etc. It really depends on the city and what I'm trying to do while traveling. One of the biggest problems with airbnbs is logistics. Most business travelers don't book out months in advance and need flexibility when plans changes, flights changes etc. They also tend to require more full service amenities. Airbnb and vrbo is already a huge part of most major cities and they are still building huge new hotels in the cities with the most active airbnbs.

I mean if cities like Denver, Charlotte, Austin, Nashville etc can have all these high end hotel flags in modern skyscrapers then why not KC? (and with all their high rise residential towers, they are going to have a lot more airbnb competition than KC hotels do).

What is hurting KC is there is very little corporate presence downtown. Hell, there is very little corporate presence in all of metro KC anymore. While most jobs are in suburban office parks, KC is just not a HQ town anymore so you just dn't have big companies in KC wining and dining clients, bringing in executives for meetings, holding conventions etc. Do to mergers etc and nobody ever choosing KC as a HQ, KC has become a regional office park town. That hurts. Also the fact that KC's stadiums are nowhere near downtown etc. But places like Nashville, Denver, Charlotte even cities like Milwaukee, Baltimore, Cincy, Pittsburgh etc have built large office towers for hometown HQs in the past few years. KC has only lost HQs to the suburbs over the last ten years.

But it really seems like KC is really close to being able to support one or two more large upscale hotels.
Last edited by GRID on Wed May 16, 2018 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by rxlexi » Wed May 16, 2018 8:40 pm

What is hurting KC is there is very little corporate presence downtown. Hell, there is very little corporate presence in all of metro KC anymore. While most jobs are in suburban office parks, KC is just not a HQ town anymore.
Agree with this, and it's a scary thought going forward. Over the next 10+ years, who/what will be the drivers of the economic growth that fuels the development we all want to see (speaking regionally)?

Without a major university, on the verge of losing Sprint, no state government. It's a conversation that I hope is keeping local leaders up at night, at least insofar as it may lead to increased investment in UMKC, or further pursuit of say animal health US HQs, Stowers bioscience expansion etc. Let's all hope that $10B Cerner VA contract is safe too...

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by KCLover » Thu May 17, 2018 12:58 am

GRID wrote:I don't see hotels going away. I travel a lot and use hotels, airbnb, vrbo etc. It really depends on the city and what I'm trying to do while traveling. One of the biggest problems with airbnbs is logistics. Most business travelers don't book out months in advance and need flexibility when plans changes, flights changes etc. They also tend to require more full service amenities. Airbnb and vrbo is already a huge part of most major cities and they are still building huge new hotels in the cities with the most active airbnbs.

I mean if cities like Denver, Charlotte, Austin, Nashville etc can have all these high end hotel flags in modern skyscrapers then why not KC? (and with all their high rise residential towers, they are going to have a lot more airbnb competition than KC hotels do).

What is hurting KC is there is very little corporate presence downtown. Hell, there is very little corporate presence in all of metro KC anymore. While most jobs are in suburban office parks, KC is just not a HQ town anymore so you just dn't have big companies in KC wining and dining clients, bringing in executives for meetings, holding conventions etc. Do to mergers etc and nobody ever choosing KC as a HQ, KC has become a regional office park town. That hurts. Also the fact that KC's stadiums are nowhere near downtown etc. But places like Nashville, Denver, Charlotte even cities like Milwaukee, Baltimore, Cincy, Pittsburgh etc have built large office towers for hometown HQs in the past few years. KC has only lost HQs to the suburbs over the last ten years.

But it really seems like KC is really close to being able to support one or two more large upscale hotels.
Hotels definitely won't be going away. Airbnb is great if you're a lone wolf on a business trip or on vacation and need a place to stay. Hotels are more attractive for corporate travel for the blocks of rooms and the fact they are clean, consistent and larger employers get a group rate. Less adventurous people like having a pool, gym, a downstairs bar or restaurant when they are in an unfamiliar city.

KC's HQs have had a lot of ups and downs. The only company that seems to be growing and doing well is Cerner. I think a case could be made for Garmin as well as they seem to be doing well and coincidently they have both heavily invested into office parks in the suburbs, but the others?

Sprint - their future is unknown
Hallmark - been on the decline for years
H&R Block - ?
Applebees - left town
Russell Stover - ?
AMC - ?
American Century - ?
DST - Recently acquired by an out of town corp.
Lockton - ?

I may be wrong, but outside of the three currently downtown, I don't see a single one of those moving to an office tower downtown for whatever reason.

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Re: The Future of Crown Center

Post by flyingember » Thu May 17, 2018 8:53 am

GRID wrote:
I don't see hotels going away. I travel a lot and use hotels, airbnb, vrbo etc. It really depends on the city and what I'm trying to do while traveling. One of the biggest problems with airbnbs is logistics. Most business travelers don't book out months in advance and need flexibility when plans changes, flights changes etc. They also tend to require more full service amenities. Airbnb and vrbo is already a huge part of most major cities and they are still building huge new hotels in the cities with the most active airbnbs.
It appears Airbnb has about 200,000 rooms nationwide.

Apparently the top five hotel groups have 3.8 million rooms worldwide and I bet the total amount of short term lodging (campsites, no-name hotels, etc) just in the US is at least twice that. There's 16,470 towns under 10k people and I bet half have a hotel averaging 40 rooms within reach. That's 329,400 rooms in total.

Airbnb is barely making a dent on the market. They're more another player in a very large market to give people choices than a distupter of the hotel industry.

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