Downtown Baseball Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by beautyfromashes »

flyingember wrote: Remember the key aspect of all this land.

This is not a socialist country, the city cannot just claim any piece of land for any purpose. The owner must be willing to sell or the city must be willing to drag the purchase into the courts if the owner fights it.

So when you see acres of parking, you should also see acres of personal rights that we shouldn't be quick to ignore.
Which is why they picked four different potential locations; to negotiate on the purchase. Having more options provides for the, “Fine! We have other locations we can explore.”, part of the negotiation. But, that wasn’t really the point. I was more countering the crazy idea that we shouldn’t build a stadium because we need that land for development. We have plenty of land. We could rebuild every building currently downtown and not run out.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

DaveKCMO wrote:anecdotally, i hear a lot of people talking about the traffic implications of a downtown stadium. completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of transit routes terminate downtown from every corner of the region...
If there is ever going to be a downtown stadium, especially within the loop, there better be a way much better and bigger mass transit system in place than what is in existence now. I know it has been a few years now but have you ever been commuting downtown in rush hour traffic when there is a big morning event in the Bartle Complex? The ones I experienced when there were motivational speakers programs in Municipal Arena brought traffic almost to a standstill.
Planning for a downtown arena should not be in isolation. It should also include planning to upgrade the mass transit system from all points of the compass.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by kas1 »

If there's going to be a downtown stadium then I can't envision it going anywhere other than the southeast corner of 19th & Oak. It's the only site available which is central enough to be accessible on foot, yet tucked away enough to not create a black hole, doesn't interrupt any existing through streets, and doesn't require demolition of any buildings that are remotely worth saving. As an added bonus, the project could include improvements to the pedestrian experience crossing between the Crossroads and Crown Center/Hospital Hill.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember »

kas1 wrote:doesn't interrupt any existing through streets
they'll want to be on a through street with direct access to freeway on ramps
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by beautyfromashes »

19th and Oak would be a terrible scale to merge with a huge ballpark. There are all one- and two story buildings that wouldn’t even be seen from the park. They’d tear down Grinders to build a condo high rise. A new ballpark needs to show off our downtown buildings while also allowing space for new build.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember »

beautyfromashes wrote:19th and Oak would be a terrible scale to merge with a huge ballpark. There are all one- and two story buildings that wouldn’t even be seen from the park. They’d tear down Grinders to build a condo high rise. A new ballpark needs to show off our downtown buildings while also allowing space for new build.
Why do the buildings next to the stadium need to be seen?

If that's a critical aspect then the only sites downtown that make sense require tearing buildings down.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by beautyfromashes »

Most all of the new stadiums being built use the background as a way to market and sell the city in a national stage. St. Louis shows the arch, Baltimore has the warehouse, San Fran has the harbor, etc. The new stadium should do the same here. I’d prefer to show off Bartle and P&L building but there aren’t any locations. But, it definitely needs to be closer in to DT.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by Highlander »

im2kull wrote:
Highlander wrote: I would disagree that downtown stadiums are necessarily islands surrounded by parking although One of the best examples is Coors Field in Denver. Going to a Rockies game is a really great experience.
Yes, Rockies games are a great experience. However, what exactly is the stadium doing to help downtown Denver today.. Or any other day in which there isn't a game? How about throughout winter? I'll give you a hint. It's a giant unused monolith with a density of zero that covers a massive swath of the downtown core in which it prevents ANY effective use of the area on a down day. It's a giant development and pedestrian roadblock. I don't know about you, but myself and everyone else in Denver is tired of having to park across the freeway and walk a mile down 20th just to get to work. Game nights are even worse because then parking is a minimum of 30 bucks for the same experience. The Mall is what has helped DT Denver the most.. Not Coors Field.
Downtown Denver was doing well before the Rockies arrived (notwithstanding the oil bust of the 80's) and I never Coors Field had anything to do with downtown Denver's emergence - I've lived there, I know the history. But it certainly has not hurt continuing that well being. There was total support for a downtown stadium in Denver when it was built and I don't think many Denver residents regret the location of the stadium at all. I am pretty well acquainted with the city having lived there, visit often and have family there. First of all, the stadium hardly occupies a massive swath of the downtown core. You very much exaggerate the footprint - It occupies a relatively small area, maybe 3 sq blocks, on the northern periphery of downtown. It's really not in the core of downtown at all.

Yea, stadiums create dead zones part of the time - not that much though as baseball stretches from at least April to late September and even well into October if you are lucky. But really, so what? The Sprint Center creates a dead zone when it's not in use. Do you really want to put it somewhere else? out in the burbs? So the land it occupies can revert back to a surface lot? Should they move Wrigley, Fenway, Yankee Stadium because they take up valuable real estate? I'd gladly replace the surface lots in downtown KC with a stadium that has no activity for a few months per year. And I really like going out to eat and to downtown bars when there is an event at the sprint center. Same for when I attend games at Coors Field. I suspect the vast majority of Denver resident do too - I know my friends and family in Denver certainly do. It's an urban experience.
Last edited by Highlander on Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by Highlander »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:anecdotally, i hear a lot of people talking about the traffic implications of a downtown stadium. completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of transit routes terminate downtown from every corner of the region...
If there is ever going to be a downtown stadium, especially within the loop, there better be a way much better and bigger mass transit system in place than what is in existence now. I know it has been a few years now but have you ever been commuting downtown in rush hour traffic when there is a big morning event in the Bartle Complex? The ones I experienced when there were motivational speakers programs in Municipal Arena brought traffic almost to a standstill.
Planning for a downtown arena should not be in isolation. It should also include planning to upgrade the mass transit system from all points of the compass.
Inside the loop is not the ideal place for a downtown stadium. The KC effort to identify locations was not very well thought through. While I'm not among the "stadiums are dead zones" crowd, they shouldn't be smack in the middle of downtown either - shoot for a peripheral location like the one I mentioned south of 20th on McGee.

If a motivational speaker at Municipal Auditorium is the worst it gets, then it can't be that bad. And KC traffic isn't bad. Rush hour is really about the same if not a little less the background traffic for Denver, Dallas and Houston. One thing I love about KC is that I never have to plan my day around traffic. Such a relief. I left for my office in Houston at 4:50 AM and the highways were already getting stacked up.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

"If a motivational speaker at Municipal Auditorium is the worst it gets, then it can't be that bad."

It was that traffic for the event along with the morning rush hour traffic. Traffic was more or less at a standstill. Not sure how the traffic was in the NE part of downtown but the west and south was a parking lot. Traffic backed up on the ramps off the highways. So I would say that was bad.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by Highlander »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:"If a motivational speaker at Municipal Auditorium is the worst it gets, then it can't be that bad."

It was that traffic for the event along with the morning rush hour traffic. Traffic was more or less at a standstill. Not sure how the traffic was in the NE part of downtown but the west and south was a parking lot. Traffic backed up on the ramps off the highways. So I would say that was bad.
Situations like that are daily if not hourly occurrences in most big cities, even some cities the size of KC. KC is blessed with a very adequate road network even though its citizens may not believe it. While I would not think the situation you described as being terribly problematic after nearly 10 years in Houston, I suspect it's quite annoying if you are use to traffic being essentially on the move all the time. The Star's poll showed a lot of opposition to a downtown stadium (although it was closer than the Star made it sound) for precisely these reasons (traffic/parking).
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by warwickland »

shinatoo wrote:
im2kull wrote:
Highlander wrote: And no one is talking about St. Louis. That stadium has always been downtown.
the cardinals have played in a non-downtown stadium for more years than they have ever been downtown, including a non-downtown busch stadium....for decades longer than the royals have even been in kansas city.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by Highlander »

warwickland wrote:
shinatoo wrote:
im2kull wrote:
the cardinals have played in a non-downtown stadium for more years than they have ever been downtown, including a non-downtown busch stadium....for decades longer than the royals have even been in kansas city.
They've been there over 50 years - not forever but a very long time (and Sportsman Park was simply changed to Busch Stadium a few years before they moved - it wasn't built as such). The Cardinals arrived downtown in the 60's when downtowns across the midwest were struggling. As I've said, stadiums help but don't singlehandedly create development, they augment it but they aren't going to turn around a downtown in decline on their own. That said, there is a good amount going on around Busch now - it's not been a total failure at creating development and the rail line provides a non auto option that I certainly envy for KC.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by warwickland »

Highlander wrote:
aknowledgeableperson wrote:"If a motivational speaker at Municipal Auditorium is the worst it gets, then it can't be that bad."

It was that traffic for the event along with the morning rush hour traffic. Traffic was more or less at a standstill. Not sure how the traffic was in the NE part of downtown but the west and south was a parking lot. Traffic backed up on the ramps off the highways. So I would say that was bad.
Situations like that are daily if not hourly occurrences in most big cities, even some cities the size of KC. KC is blessed with a very adequate road network even though its citizens may not believe it. While I would not think the situation you described as being terribly problematic after nearly 10 years in Houston, I suspect it's quite annoying if you are use to traffic being essentially on the move all the time. The Star's poll showed a lot of opposition to a downtown stadium (although it was closer than the Star made it sound) for precisely these reasons (traffic/parking).
the funny thing is that i've probably been stuck in worse, choked down traffic leaving kaufmann than leaving downtown st. louis after a cardinals game, which sits on a street grid that has a ton of potential ways to leave including a bunch of on-ramps to four different interstates. an exception might be like playoff or world series traffic. i imagine downtown kc would be the same once the suburbanites figured out all of the alternate ways out.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by rxlexi »

the cardinals have played in a non-downtown stadium for more years than they have ever been downtown, including a non-downtown busch stadium....for decades longer than the royals have even been in kansas city.
<rolls eyes>

To highlander's point, Busch II opened in what, 1966? Essentially, the cards have been downtown forever in modern pro sports history. As a side note, I still miss those concrete arches around the top of that stadium - wish they had kept some and done something with them around Busch III. Also wish Busch draft beer was possible to still find in the new stadium - if you can, tell me where!

Obviously I'm all for a downtown ballpark in KC, but have mixed feelings about waiting until 2030 for it. By that point, Kauffman will be genuinely historic, and even more of a unique, mid-century design. The location, however, will no doubt still be awful, despite the presence of Dixon's Chili Parlor and Cool Crest in close proximity.

Such an interesting scenario we have in KC - aging stadia that have been and are still considered best-in-class (or close), that would no doubt become classics if used and tastefully updated continually, that are located in (IMO) one of the least appealing locations in the metro area. The parking lots are wonderful for tailgating, but agree with Warwickland that leaving TSC can be a major pain now that they are funneling all traffic out to defined exits, and EVERY SINGLE CAR is getting onto 435 back to JoCo, while some of us just want to sneak out a back route to Raytown Road and on to midtown.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by earthling »

Jurassic Park (E side of downtown Loop) would be a good place if not North Loop. And it may encourage a streetcar line along Indep Ave.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by warwickland »

rxlexi wrote:
the cardinals have played in a non-downtown stadium for more years than they have ever been downtown, including a non-downtown busch stadium....for decades longer than the royals have even been in kansas city.
<rolls eyes>

To highlander's point, Busch II opened in what, 1966? Essentially, the cards have been downtown forever in modern pro sports history. As a side note, I still miss those concrete arches around the top of that stadium - wish they had kept some and done something with them around Busch III. Also wish Busch draft beer was possible to still find in the new stadium - if you can, tell me where!

Obviously I'm all for a downtown ballpark in KC, but have mixed feelings about waiting until 2030 for it. By that point, Kauffman will be genuinely historic, and even more of a unique, mid-century design. The location, however, will no doubt still be awful, despite the presence of Dixon's Chili Parlor and Cool Crest in close proximity.

Such an interesting scenario we have in KC - aging stadia that have been and are still considered best-in-class (or close), that would no doubt become classics if used and tastefully updated continually, that are located in (IMO) one of the least appealing locations in the metro area. The parking lots are wonderful for tailgating, but agree with Warwickland that leaving TSC can be a major pain now that they are funneling all traffic out to defined exits, and EVERY SINGLE CAR is getting onto 435 back to JoCo, while some of us just want to sneak out a back route to Raytown Road and on to midtown.
silver lining - maybe the cheaply designed/constructed "throwback" stadia will be out of fashion by the time kc builds a downtown stadium. i mean if you take minneapolis as an example it already is. i am nostalgic for busch II and older stadiums like that (i guess kauffman is the last of that generation)...i've always said thought that i would love to have had kauffman in downtown st. louis, with generally the same sightlines as busch III. it would be kind of cool to sort of echo kauffman instead of like mimicking 1908.

about busch draft...sometimes its hard just getting a budweiser (HEAVY)! all of these BUD SELECT DADS from ballwin are outnumbering the southside geezers.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by chingon »

Turdbird and Bushleague stadium talk out of this thread now! I demand a mod cut/safe space.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by ToDactivist »

twist on this time could be two converging prospects....the ULI-endorsed evacuation of I-70 and Amazon HQ2. removing the hwy allows for parking and bus ingress for a stadium above/adjacent on the lovely concrete mass just south of I-70. And giving Amazon naming rights is unlike any other city's proposal n'est ce pas? win-win-win = 50,000. And anyone who doubts the renaissance opportunity locating a stadium downtown needs to visit Coors Field. Planning starts now. Think bigger KC.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by ToDactivist »

And no, plopping down a stadium, or any placemaking effort, should not be taken lightly. It takes an understanding of what is, what can be, and what makes it so. Look at Minute Maid stadium in lovely houston. Nada for redevelopment b/c it was not in an area that was, could be and nothing can make it so. Ughfest. I fear the same for East of downtown. just b/c you can doesnt mean you should. concrete mess separated by government vacuum. and shoehorning it next to Sprint center is just wrong, so is tearing down a functioning gov't bldg. think egress, think walkability, dont ignore the people mover, think what is, and maybe it can be.
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