OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

[mean]

You guys are discussing two very different visions, and I think I prefer BFA's. Ensuring ease of access to downtown for the entire metro seems like a continuation of the policies that screwed downtown in the first place.

[flyingember]

You won't fix the problems by not trying.

It's cutting back bus service or never providing it that makes it easier to drive and suddenly a whole bunch of not downtown options open up. Do you really think isolating downtown in any way will mean roads in the suburbs won't be widened? Taking people off the road in more parts of town is what we need.

In theory I could ride the bus to work. There is a stop reachable by bike in a few minutes on one end and literally outside my employer on the other. It's a 1.5 hour trip. That's not feasible ever. The home side of the trio recently dropped frequency, discouraging riders and reducing total line capacity. I would needs to transfer twice. The bus stops are mostly unprotected.

How is that a workable system that supports policies of bringing people to work by anything other than car?

When it's free the economics change and the system can gain riders over a car. Then people will demand better on current routes.
When it's free you will find people demanding bus service come closer to them.
When it's free people will want to locate along a bus line more than today,
More bus riders means more pressure on pedestrian access across the city.
More bus riders and less car demand means closing the loop, bike lanes and the like become options in more places.

I'm talking about moving from supporting edge car sprawl to more of a 1960s core, the first ten miles or so out from downtown.

[mean]

The problem is that I don't think the problems you're identifying and trying to fix are the actual problems. You seem to be coming from a purely suburban view, which is fine, but those answers have been the only ones anyone cared about for the last 50+ years and they failed. Obviously a 1.5 hour bus trip is not feasible. Two transfers? Not gonna happen. So rather than trying to nudge it into feasibility with bullshit incremental improvement that nobody cares about or will ever use, just don't offer it. Make everyone drive. That's the point! Make them buy a car. You don't wanna buy a car? Guess what, live in the fucking city. The end.

The problem isn't that people can't get downtown, the problem is that people don't live in the urban core in sufficient numbers.

[beautyfromashes]

It's a 1.5 hour trip.

God! Where do you live?!?

[mean]

It's a 1.5 hour trip.

God! Where do you live?!?

To be fair, I live in the city just a few miles (7ish minute drive) from where I often work, and it is a 50-minute to 1.5 hour bus journey to the same spot. So why bother? I never have. I could bike there faster. It's useless. Why do we waste money offering it? So those who can't afford cars can make the commute? I mean, that's noble and all but they must be miserable. Why are we facilitating their continued misery? Save the bus money and just give them the freaking cash.

[beautyfromashes]

^ and you work in the city?

[mean]

I live in NE (ghetto, scary!) and the work space in question is in WyCo.

[flyingember]

It's a 1.5 hour trip.

God! Where do you live?!?

4 miles north of downtown, it's roughly the same distance as UMKC is from downtown so it's not what you would call far away.
I work off 63rd St, I go by parks HQ daily. This end isnt exactly a bad place for bus service either.

Its just the system isn't built well. I made a map recently, we have four bus systems in this city that all meet downtown.
We already have a system that makes it hard to go elsewhere and that's the problem. Don't think College Blvd. think of the person who finally found a great job in reasonably urban places like KU med. if they live at 12th and Prospect how many transfers is that?

Each color is a line from a different part of town. The orange swoop is the end point of all northland routes.
https://twitter.com/flyingember/status/ ... 0538924032

I live in NE (ghetto, scary!) and the work space in question is in WyCo.

There's a brand new Amazon serving KCK bus route. Not a redo, it's a brand new line. It stops downtown, just short of a lot of people that could use those jobs to the east. Can't extend all routes to there but none of them?

It's not a horrible thing to have a continuous bus line that goes from Indep Ave and Hardesty to the legends or from N Oak and Vivion to Brookside.

We have a workable urban core transit system for 1970 and it's still stuck there.

So people drive, they want wider roads and they get them.

[Highlander]

I don't think people in KC are as much anti-rail as they are part of the "it does not benefit me, I'm not paying for it" crowd.

Voters in the KCMO community have approved issues that benefited KC as a whole but not themselves. Look at past approvals for bus and transportation sales taxes. For the community as a whole look at the passage of the sales tax for the zoo.

With regards to the recent rail/streetcar vote I think many see the streetcar as an antiquated form of transit, more expensive and limited than bus and/or car. And let's not forget the KCMO community as a whole did at one time vote for approval of a rail plan but that might have been because it promised so much for its very limited cost.

I think those who support a larger rail system need to do a better sales job to the rest of the city and change it's focus. Highlight the new development along and by the current line and how that new development benefits the city as a whole with regards to taxes and so forth. Push it more as a development tool, increase the tax base tool, something that benefits the city as a whole instead of a very limited area.

The zoo was a no brainer - what we had an un-accredited dump. We were close to becoming the only large city in the US without a zoo. The stadiums pass because people like having sports teams here. But you are kind of right about KC not being as stingy as I made them sound and I will get to that.

I don't buy that there are many people in KC that think streetcars are antiquated and that buses are better etc... There may be a couple of dozen people tops that sit down and genuinely try to think it through and come to that erroneous conclusion - it's not a pervasive opinion. The reasons Q1 passed are much more complicated than that...They've been discussed:

1) Deceitful and misleading ballot language. That's the primary reason. By far. When I saw the language, I knew Q1 would pass. How it ever got on the ballot in that format is a huge question. After seeing the very close results, had the language been honest, Q1 certainly would have failed. The ballot language might as well have read "say yes and a genie will grant you 3 wishes" for the info it conveyed.
2) a crazy person named Clay Chastain. Chastain has done more to hurt rail transportation than any streetcar opponent. If his name is attached, it's going down and there will be collateral damage. I don't think it helped that his plan was endorsed by streetcar proponents. Stay away from Clay - heed that advice in the future.
3) A very vocal but small minority in KC that view anything that is urban or not auto-centric with supreme suspicion. Insular people are paranoid.
4) Other political shenanigans in KC (see Pash's post - he said it better about the east side than I could).

All that said, the measure, without any organized opposition, even with the dishonest ballot language barely passed. That makes me optimistic. A little education (which you point out is needed) and the corner is turned. I don't even think you have change strategies - just make a showing to oppose and educate. KC voters are not going to deny people who want to pay for their own streetcar system a chance to do that if they actually knew what they were voting for.

[horizons82]

Has there ever been any focused studying of what makes the East side so anti-transit? Is it misguided fear at "losing" resources? I understand the misguided angst in having your taxes raised, but that doesn't seem to stop the east side for voting for a multitude of other tax increases.

[chingon]

Also to the millennial participation trophy comment: eat my shorts, old man.

I dont know why this made me laugh so hard. The kids are alright, after all, I guess.

[DaveKCMO]

Has there ever been any focused studying of what makes the East side so anti-transit? Is it misguided fear at "losing" resources? I understand the misguided angst in having your taxes raised, but that doesn't seem to stop the east side for voting for a multitude of other tax increases.

anti-rail, not anti-transit. a bus tax has never failed in KCMO or specifically on the east side. votes in 2003 and 2008.

[chingon]

.

[mykn]

Has there ever been any focused studying of what makes the East side so anti-transit? Is it misguided fear at "losing" resources? I understand the misguided angst in having your taxes raised, but that doesn't seem to stop the east side for voting for a multitude of other tax increases.

anti-rail, not anti-transit. a bus tax has never failed in KCMO or specifically on the east side. votes in 2003 and 2008.

How about a petition to increase the transit sales tax to fund:
1. Higher bus frequency
2. No fares on all public transit
3. Streetcar/Lightrail Expansion

Do you think the Eastside would go for that?

[DaveKCMO]

Has there ever been any focused studying of what makes the East side so anti-transit? Is it misguided fear at "losing" resources? I understand the misguided angst in having your taxes raised, but that doesn't seem to stop the east side for voting for a multitude of other tax increases.

anti-rail, not anti-transit. a bus tax has never failed in KCMO or specifically on the east side. votes in 2003 and 2008.

How about a petition to increase the transit sales tax to fund:
1. Higher bus frequency
2. No fares on all public transit
3. Streetcar/Lightrail Expansion

Do you think the Eastside would go for that?

you'd have to do a poll. i know that free transit polls very well citywide, but the available authorization (1/8-cent) for operating doesn't generate enough citywide to do free transit AND much more frequency. the capital sales tax that's available (1/4-cent) could not be used for operations. TDD revenue cannot be used for bus operations (thanks, legislature!).

at this point, i'm inclined to say we just build the river to plaza spine and spend the rest on free bus service -- cobbled together from various available sources on KCMO side -- until someone grows a pair on the kansas side to ask for a state authorization for a regional system.

[joshmv]

I'm lost. Could someone do me a favor and give a quick TLDR on where we are with the expansion? I think I've got this far...

The TDD passed
The petition blocking city involvement passed
Planning will continue
Another election for specific TDD taxes will happen next year

Obviously the petition passing is bad, but I guess I'm asking how bad and whether there's a chance that it's a non-issue in the end?

[DaveKCMO]

I'm lost. Could someone do me a favor and give a quick TLDR on where we are with the expansion? I think I've got this far...

The TDD passed
The petition blocking city involvement passed
Planning will continue
Another election for specific TDD taxes will happen next year

Obviously the petition passing is bad, but I guess I'm asking how bad and whether there's a chance that it's a non-issue in the end?

it's certainly not a non-issue, but it's currently not delaying the project.

your summary is accurate, but there's also a director election in october. seven seats to fill the TDD board of directors.

[earthling]

Update from Collison...
https://cityscenekc.com/despite-electio ... n-to-umkc/

The $1 million authorized to fund the new planning study comes from the Kansas City Area Transportation Authority and Streetcar Authority, not the city, so it does not violate the recently approved petition.

The City Law Department also has questioned the legality of the petition, and the City Council could vote to overturn it.

The new planning effort led by HDR includes determining whether the proposed extension should run down the center or side of Main Street; station stop locations; updated cost estimates, and initiating application for federal funding. It’s expected to last nine months.

[grovester]

So when does the city have to get involved? Does the city apply for federal funding?

[mykn]

anti-rail, not anti-transit. a bus tax has never failed in KCMO or specifically on the east side. votes in 2003 and 2008.

How about a petition to increase the transit sales tax to fund:
1. Higher bus frequency
2. No fares on all public transit
3. Streetcar/Lightrail Expansion

Do you think the Eastside would go for that?

you'd have to do a poll. i know that free transit polls very well citywide, but the available authorization (1/8-cent) for operating doesn't generate enough citywide to do free transit AND much more frequency. the capital sales tax that's available (1/4-cent) could not be used for operations. TDD revenue cannot be used for bus operations (thanks, legislature!).

at this point, i'm inclined to say we just build the river to plaza spine and spend the rest on free bus service -- cobbled together from various available sources on KCMO side -- until someone grows a pair on the kansas side to ask for a state authorization for a regional system.

Thanks for the details. Agreed, next push is free service after the spine has been built.