Downtown Baseball Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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DaveKCMO
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by DaveKCMO »

harbinger911 wrote:Man there are some really stupid ideas being thrown around.

Belvidere Park? Crazy.
There's not enough room and that would be the worst possible location in the known universe.
There's little highway access and the neighborhood is still sketchy.
There is absolutely no synergistic capabilities with downtown from that location.

North loop? Again, not really enough room. That would be the tightest fit of any baseball stadium in the MLB.
It's ridiculous.

The idea is to place it where it will spur real development.
19th & Oak, that is far and away the best location.
It ties downtown to the Jazz District and will be perfect for adding residential down 18th street.
Image

https://twitter.com/jrmiller962/status/ ... 9356013568
where do you plan to put all of the parking that the teams will inevitably require? don't plan on leveling a bunch of crossroads buildings for it, either.
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grovester
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by grovester »

Needs to go farther east. That connects the jazz district about as much as Grinders does.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by FangKC »

That is why talk of a downtown baseball stadium makes me so nervous. The parking issue. Our community tends to have a penchant for abundant surface parking in all things.

The 19th and Oak site makes the most sense. Nothing significant would have to be demolished for the stadium. If the financing also included a new garage at 20th and McGee in between the two bridges, I could tolerate a single-use parking garage there. Especially if it was also used for parking to service a new development on Grand between 19th and 20th. The other condition would be opening up nearby garages to the public for games: the garages around Hospital Hill; the garages at Crown Center; and any future garage under the deck in a revamped Washington Square Park. One could also use the IRS garages on Pershing if shuttles were run. The overflow parking could be placed on surface lots east of Troost.

It doesn't make sense to build several garages just for baseball fans' use. They would have to be tied other joint uses and other new developments in the area, and be full during business hours serving economic activity.

Other downtown garages could be used, but even then I worry that the streetcar couldn't handle the increased capacity efficiently enough to carry that many passengers near the stadium within an hour of the game starting.

It would help if we could run commuter trains behind the stadium with a dedicated stop there. That might reduce parking needs somewhat. But that's another big problem itself.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by pash »

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

Let's see. The conversation starts in five years. How will all of these various areas look like in five years? And a decision wouldn't be made right away so who knows what development would occur between the start of the conversation and a possible decision on a location.
And let's see, how long of a commitment do the Royals have to the TSC?
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember »

harbinger911 wrote:Man there are some really stupid ideas being thrown around.

Belvidere Park? Crazy.
There's not enough room and that would be the worst possible location in the known universe.
I'm impressed. You managed to put around a 12 acre ballpark down in your example. The park site is 15.3 acres
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember »

harbinger911 wrote:Just look at all of the blue surface lots and unused/underused parcels.

Image
Yes, taking land from a Children's hospital is a project that people can get behind.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by chingon »

harbinger911 wrote: It's not like we can tear out everything exactly halfway between the Crossroads and Vine and plop it there - it has to go somewhere.
That is an empty space that is "between" and close to 18th, so it's a great start to connect the 2 Districts in the best way possible right now.
Where else "east?" Too far east and you lose the immediate synergy of the Crossroads which is a much better bet to spur development.
Any development along 18th is happening west and moving east. That's common sense.[/b]
I like your thought process, re: connected the East crossroads to the east side, but I think, and have mentioned probably ad nauseum before, that goal is better accomplished and more easily realized by building a downtown stadium on E 18th/19th east of 71 HWY. The city could, in fact, tear down everything there and plop a stadium down. The ATA owns/uses quite a bit of the real estate there, and there is ample room to move that facility. Man Tech could also be relocated to any of the appropriately-sized vacant KCMOPSD buildings. Other than that there's not much but a couple scrap yards and other light industry that should make the site pretty easy to acquire. And there's plenty of room for surface parking to exist in a "less destructive" way. Add to that the excellent highway access in the area, the traffic volume that Truman and Paseo can easily handle, plus the area's baseball history and extant but underperforming retail infrastructure, it makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember »

If moving the bus facility is realistic that's not a horrible location.

It's already a superblock and where it isn't (Forest) the roads don't connect past I-70 or US 71 so you're not upsetting the grid. E-W taking out 16th and 17th was already done.

Urban, spot is near freeway noise so you don't have NIMBY noise problems. Same urban ease of access with decent freeway access and existing transit and doesn't overlap downtown street traffic. Good place for parking garages where no one will care right along US 71. Can build on 18th/Vine development.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by grovester »

chingon wrote:
harbinger911 wrote: It's not like we can tear out everything exactly halfway between the Crossroads and Vine and plop it there - it has to go somewhere.
That is an empty space that is "between" and close to 18th, so it's a great start to connect the 2 Districts in the best way possible right now.
Where else "east?" Too far east and you lose the immediate synergy of the Crossroads which is a much better bet to spur development.
Any development along 18th is happening west and moving east. That's common sense.[/b]
I like your thought process, re: connected the East crossroads to the east side, but I think, and have mentioned probably ad nauseum before, that goal is better accomplished and more easily realized by building a downtown stadium on E 18th/19th east of 71 HWY. The city could, in fact, tear down everything there and plop a stadium down. The ATA owns/uses quite a bit of the real estate there, and there is ample room to move that facility. Man Tech could also be relocated to any of the appropriately-sized vacant KCMOPSD buildings. Other than that there's not much but a couple scrap yards and other light industry that should make the site pretty easy to acquire. And there's plenty of room for surface parking to exist in a "less destructive" way. Add to that the excellent highway access in the area, the traffic volume that Truman and Paseo can easily handle, plus the area's baseball history and extant but underperforming retail infrastructure, it makes a lot of sense.
^^^This. The area you have marked is already well on its way to vibrancy and a stadium there would probably fuck it up.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember »

Wow...

If you think that's the worst part of town you have a lot of the city to see. It's not even in the top 10.

This is my top 5
Around Nicholson Ball Diamond Park
Around Independence Plaza Park
North on Manchester Trafficway from I-70
Along Coal Mine Rd north of Blue Parkway
Central Paseo Industrial (not the far north, not the far south, around 9thh to 12th and centered on Tracy)


I've been in a lot of industrial areas in a lot of the city and easily 80% of the neighborhoods. I am very rarely interested in not exploring and leaving a place quickly.

And for no development, did you forget there's a youth baseball complex going into Parade Park?
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-co ... 536247.htm

It also doesn't make it worth to listen to you when you make personal attacks to distract from being wrong.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by im2kull »

flyingember wrote:
harbinger911 wrote:Just look at all of the blue surface lots and unused/underused parcels.

Image
Yes, taking land from a Children's hospital is a project that people can get behind.

The scale of that proposal is off horribly. The DT arena takes up 4 square blocks. An MLB stadium more than likely needs at least 9...
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

"We're talking about 1/2 billion dollar investment"
By the time a downtown stadium is built, probably 20 to 30 years from now, the cost would be to the north of that amount. And given how fast arenas are replaced the just might be forced to build a new arena at the same time.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by FangKC »

flyingember wrote:Wow...

If you think that's the worst part of town you have a lot of the city to see. It's not even in the top 10.

This is my top 5
...
Central Paseo Industrial (not the far north, not the far south, around 9thh to 12th and centered on Tracy)
...
It might not be ideal now, but I predict in the future this area will become more desirable. The north end of the neighborhood is already an actively-planned development zone anchored by a university.

If I were a very wealthy developer, this is the area I would start targeting for future redevelopment--buying up parcels. I predict this is where future big office projects will go--especially after the Loop is further built out. There are many advantages. Some of the blocks are already mostly cleared. There are few historic buildings left that you have to work around. Some of the existing buildings that would be demolished are simple warehouse buildings. A developer would have the whole block to work with in many cases, and could build structured parking underground and in the centers of the block. It's surrounded by freeway access, and it would be fairly easy to extend the streetcar into the neighborhood in a couple of places. It's already right next to the Downtown Loop.

I also think at some point it will be cheaper, and easier, to buy and assemble parcels in Paseo West than in other locations to do larger redevelopment projects. Here there would be less resistance than a neighborhood like the Crossroads, where there would be more of a fight because a developer might want to tear down an existing building. High rises would do less harm here because you don't have to worry as much about adjacent historic properties, and you could design more freely to incorporate parking, retail, and office needs. Of course one would need the developers to be willing to do that sort of planning, and want to create a walkable neighborhood and desirable product. And you would need the City to stand firm on zoning and not allow suburban type development.

It would probably be better, and easier, to locate larger employers in Paseo West than trying to cram them in parts of the downtown Loop and the Crossroads.

If I were developing this neighborhood, I would build out residential at the same time as office and retail. It sort of reminds me of the area being developed now around Union Station in Denver.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by shinatoo »

Over 670. Move 35 to the west bottoms. Uses wasted land, corrects a highway planning mistake. If it has a rolling roof can be used for convention space.

Spectacular DT view.

Would make more sense, from a convention standpoint, if it were a domed football stadium.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember »

Any bottoms plan has to contend with the ultimate NO entity.

The railroads. They can hold up any plan for years by themselves

Maybe I-35 should be there, doesn't mean there's any chance if ever will be.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by im2kull »

harbinger911 wrote: The point is you don't pick a spot that's isolated and dead that has no synergy with other amenities.
Wait, isn't THAT exactly what a stadium is? There's a density of ZERO for almost 8/10ths of the year at a downtown stadium. It's a huge waste of space.

Do you think the Sprint Center has helped downtown more, or the P&L district?
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by FangKC »

I don't think you can really isolate them that much. It's the combination of the two that has brought vitality back. But of the two, I would say P&L District, and that is mostly because of the grocery store. It also added three additional entertainment venues (movie theater, revamped Midland, Copaken stage) that are non-bar/restaurant. The other thing P&L did was make new-construction apartment towers possible. When done, P&L will be responsible for getting five new mid-high-rises built downtown: H&R Block tower, One Light, Two Light, Three Light, Four Light, and the new building north of the former KC P&L tower.

Sprint Center is kind of different than a stadium, since it didn't result in a sea of parking lots around it. It uses existing downtown parking garages, and really the only big surface lot it probably created (at 12th and Grand) will likely get developed itself in time. The LIVE stage at P&L also has created a gathering place downtown that gives the City more marketing value than almost anything else.

Having Sprint Center and the three additional entertainment venues creates a lot of foot traffic--especially on nights when there are simultaneous events at several of them.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by WinchesterMysteryHouse »

This is pipe dreaming of the highest order.
Kauffman isn't going anywhere.
Downtown stadiums are logistical nightmares.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember »

WinchesterMysteryHouse wrote:This is pipe dreaming of the highest order.
Kauffman isn't going anywhere.
Downtown stadiums are logistical nightmares.
suburban stadiums are too

Look at Atlanta's new stadium. It's the project where people figured out the scope keeps growing but the price doesn't. And now a key way to actually get to the stadium won't be built for the first year.
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