Denver Union Station Rehab and Reuse

[missingkc]

Some of you will find this slide show of work to turn Denver's Union Station into a modern transit hub interesting.

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/ ... ge_gallery

[longviewmo]

Neat.

[Downtowner]

Really? One shiny bldg. set you off? You might like One Light as well. I've stayed in Downtown Denver. It has its own set of problems. Start with the 16th Street Mall. Most people don't recommend it after 6 pm. It's filled with beggars and meth-heads (in packs) looking for their next score. Walking that gauntlet is not fun. They literally take the area over at night.

I'll take the Plaza any day over the 16th Street Mall. Btw, the Plaza was named one of the Top 50 public spaces in the world. Denver is not much to look at - it's flat and generally featureless with not many trees. It's one of America's most over-hyped cities. And architecturally sad. That art museum doesn't look like much up against KC's bloch bldg. The Kauffman Center is way ahead of anything in downtown Denver. I do like the infill on housing there but it's super expensive. And Union Station there is like a movie set. That giant grand entrance and it's about 30' deep behind it of nothing. Not sure what the remodel will bring. Denver-ites think they're living in Shangri-La but all they can point to on the merits of the city is the weather. Um, ok. There's a reason KC is on just about every Top 10 List and Denver is not. Denver is kind of a 90's success --- lots of generic box buildings downtown. KC has been way more ambitious , way more interesting (WW1 Museum) and it shows.

[AlbertHammond]

A 7th grader could solve this city's problems and everyone knows it.

This....I agree with.

KC is getting better, but when I visit other cities that have their act together, I wonder why I live here. Denver is a great example. They didn't get Stapleton right, streets too wide, etc., but holy cow, that city is booming. Sure, we got this bi-state problem, but it is partly the KCMO government that could fix it with a righting of the ship.

As for the KCMO school district: implode the mother and start over. What a self-destructing, city-killing torcher that has been for the past 50 years.

Then we go and invest all this money and jobs at the Banister Mall site when we all know that the right place for that project was near downtown. Sure...try to attract "millennial" workers to that wasteland area. Ugh!

[WSPanic]

I'm so sick of KC, the city is a dump. We have filthy, worthless criminals running the streets.
Stupid idiots running the school board. A politically driven police dept. that could care less - just maintain the status quo of 100 murders and 1000 rapes per year, yada, yada. And a populace that really could care less about living in a real city.

A 7th grader could solve this city's problems and everyone knows it. PUT ALL of the criminals under a jail and let them rot.
Takeover the school district and turn it over to a private company. Fire the heads of every Dept tomorrow morning and rehire intelligent, competent men and give them carte blanche to run their depts like the military. There's a reason why Minneapolis and Denver thrive while KC diminishes. We ALL know what the "problem" is.

After living in San Diego for a year, I really hate what KC has become over the last 60 years.
This development and about 20 other similar projects in Denver make KC look like a joke.
KC's time has passed and will never come back, it's irrelevant...podunk.
http://denverinfill.com/blog/tag/1144-15th-street

Then maybe it's time for you to go. While your progressive mindset and level-headed dialogue will be missed, we'll manage.

[taxi]

I'm afraid we are a little short on gerbils, at present. Please send us some of your shaved and de-clawed gerbils, preferably prior to your usage.

[joshmv]

I'm a little confused about why you're here. If you see dislike KC and see it as hopeless, move on and be happy in that you've moved away from this "dump". You could also try the city-data forums. Tons of unhappy people circle jerking over there and wasting large chunks of their time on this planet talking crap about different cities, including KC.

I see the KC metro as being the best value in the country to raise a family, and I've looked at both Denver and San Diego extensively as I've recently had opportunities in both. I'm sure my wants and needs are different than yours however.

[grovester]

Don't let the gerbil hit you in the back door on the way out!

[Downtowner]

The cool thing is that Denver is filled with guys like you...hyper-aggressive about why Denver is the shit when it's really not (maybe you should try San Diego for the real deal). The capital of Western Kansas is less than inspiring. The city beautiful movement clearly passed it by. I get it --- you're paying huge bucks to live there and need to justify that. It's not much to look at as far as cities go. Build something interesting in Denver and then come back on and brag about it. Lame box buildings are Denver's specialty. Meanwhile KC gets Int'l acclaim for the Kaufmann PAC and the Bloch. That's how you get on the Top 10 lists. We're slower but build incredible stuff. Try quality instead of quantity. You can dismiss the Plaza but it's better than anything Denver has to offer by a longshot -- even if it's not downtown. There's no hills or trees but at least you can drive to the mountains.

Denver has been transformed by California transplants cashing out. So therefore you don't have the Midwestern friendliness -- just bitter hateful dudes like you. And yea, why do you hang out on this forum if you dislike KC that much?

[moderne]

"This city is booming, energy rich, polluted, worried about water, and blessed with some of the most magnificent mountain scenery on earth. It is also insular, a bit smug, and a little square....
like one big barracks housing 500,000 people who are waiting for the weekend, so they can take off for those gorgeous slopes."
The American City---Chicago Tribune

[loftguy]

I love Denver. It is a cool city and easy to hate.

I left there many years ago. Every time I am back to visit I am equally glad and sad that I left.

I'm glad to have left, because the traffic is so relentless and numbing. If you don't know how bad it is, well it is worse than you imagine.

I'm sad to not be there for the tremendous growth and infusion of wealth, infrastructure and progressive change.

I'm glad to have left, because it is so frighteningly expensive and crispy-cracker white.

I'm sad to have left, because my simple, but well-placed house would be worth way over a million dollars now.

[shinatoo]

SoCal or Denver. Either way the water is running out.

[GRID]

I still read almost every active thread on KCrag on pretty regular basis and am still able to follow every single development or proposed devolvement in the metro area, but rarely sign in or post anymore mainly just do to lack of time, but I had to sign on here to comment on this thread.

After six years of being away from KC and only visiting the city a few times a year where you can see how KC changes over periods of months, I have a different perspective of KC than most locals (although it’s the nearly the same as my thoughts were when I lived there). There is some truth to the original post, but at the same time, it’s a bit harsh as well.

Here is my honest opinion from probably one of the most die hard pro KCMO people there is, even today while not living there.

KC to this day still just does enough to not go backwards and that’s about it. In most cases the city does so little or waits so long to improve something that it’s still losing ground to most cities out there (or has lost too much ground to catch up). Areas like transit, recreation, urban core jobs, regional planning, airport, convention hotel are examples.

I understand that a lot of great things have happened in KC over the past 15 years. I mean the city has basically done a 180 compared to how it was in the 90’s (an embarrassing disaster of a city). But compared to most large metros out there (including many in the rather slow growth Midwest region), the city is still just barely cruising along trying to get over some hump and rise to the next level despite it having some of the fastest growing suburbs and an average to above average job creation stats.

The performing arts center is amazing. The Plaza is still a very neat and unique area. KC has some nice warehouse residential districts and new construction is finally starting to occur. The city has spent billions on public venues (bartle, sprint center, sports complex, p&l district) But the biggest problem STILL holding KC back is all new jobs and all the jobs that are attractive to younger people that want to be in an urban area are NOWHERE NEAR DOWNTOWN. KC will never ever compete with most other metros as long as the business community of the metropolitan area continues to abandon and ignore the city core.

In order to compete with places like Denver, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Charlotte, Seattle, San Diego you have to run on all cylinders. KC has one cylinder that is totally busted, the one where there should be other Hallmark type companies downtown or that at least care about downtown. Hallmark has done their part, but can no longer carry the city. KC is so lucky they had Hallmark, but as that company continues to shrink, who is filling that gaping hole?

I honestly don’t think KC can even compare to places like Denver. It can from a cultural or amenity standpoint. I mean KC can compete with Denver or Seattle or Pittsburgh or even DC when it comes to pro sports, performing arts etc. But when it comes to urban vibrancy, desirable walkable urban/suburban neighborhoods, urban recreation, modern transit options, urban universities etc, KC really starts to struggle. It just doesn't have much urban bustle or vibrancy and has a lot of holes in developing such vibrance.

I still think the main reason for this is the state line along with the lack of interest by the regional corporate community.

You gotta have jobs. Not just government or law firms, but real corporate involvement in the city. Not only does that get you new office towers, it gets you people on the sidewalks, more condos, more hotels, more demand for downtown infrastructure such as transit and bike trails, more retail, more push to get things done. KC is still desperately lacking this. Now KC has many things that places like Charlotte or Denver would love to have, Many cities would die for the urban grit, the history, the building stock, the architecture etc in KC. But without that key component of urban core jobs and companies with a vested interested in the central city, KC will continue to just sort of move forward, but very slowly. Residential has to carry most of the weight and while that doing well in KC, think about how well it could be doing if most people that do move downtown didn’t reverse commute to the burbs and all the people that choose to love near the jobs could live downtown instead. KC would be seeing a lot more residential construction.

Even compared to Baltimore, a city that has some real issues. Baltimore has several large office towers going up for local companies and it has nothing to do with being near DC. Urban residential construction in Baltimore is strong as well, even with their crime problems. Same with Pittsburgh, Cincy etc. KC seems very slow growth. There seem to be only a few Midwest cities that struggle more than KC does with a lack of urban core investment by the local business community. KC is a great and underrated city, but it still is nowhere near its potential and that is what has always bugged me about the city. The potential is so great, but it can’t capitalize and really get things done and the few things it does get done take way too long.

Oh and Union Station in Denver is incredible. Does the actual historic station itself compare to KC’s union station? Of course not. But how can anybody that has any interest in urban development and planning/transit hate what Denver has done with not only union station and not only downtown, but their entire metro area. Be envious of what regional cooperation and urban core focus by an entire region can do to a city/metro but don’t hate it.

Most metros have far more tower cranes in their central city than all the suburbs combined and are even getting away from suburban office parks unless they are TOD or mixed use. KC in this respect is still totally stuck in 1980.

[chingon]

I largely agree with GRID, especially regarding jobs and the corporate community in KC, a probablem either exacerbated or arguably created by Kansas's sustained economic death spiral of desperation.

That said, I just got back from 2 weeks in Denver and as always, the city gave me a profound case of the "meh"s. It does seem to be one of the North American places with the least character I have ever been, unless you consider pretending you are "outdoorsy", primarily as evidence by the "performance" clothing you wear, to be a type of character. Next to Vancouver, I have difficulty imagining a place of such size and obvious "success" with less soul. Denver is like the Taylor Swift of cities to me, I can tell other people find it attractive, but I cannot ponder a single reason why. I just sit back in utter disbelief at its profoundly baseless fame and good fortune.

I think the bottom line is KC is just not a boom/bust kind of city. It moves slow, haltingly, maddeningly so, at times. But its valleys are as shallow as its peaks are low. As far as I can tell, its always been that way with about 10 years exception in the mid 1920s-30s. I honestly think KC is legitmately a place that if you don't like it, you should move away from, because likely it will not change a great deal in your lifetime.

There is also, for the record, not a damn thing going on in Cincinnati, Ohio that isn't going on in KC.

[GRID]

I largely agree with GRID, especially regarding jobs and the corporate community in KC, a probablem either exacerbated or arguably created by Kansas's sustained economic death spiral of desperation.

That said, I just got back from 2 weeks in Denver and as always, the city gave me a profound case of the "meh"s. It does seem to be one of the North American places with the least character I have ever been, unless you consider pretending you are "outdoorsy", primarily as evidence by the "performance" clothing you wear, to be a type of character. Next to Vancouver, I have difficulty imagining a place of such size and obvious "success" with less soul. Denver is like the Taylor Swift of cities to me, I can tell other people find it attractive, but I cannot ponder a single reason why. I just sit back in utter disbelief at its profoundly baseless fame and good fortune.

I think the bottom line is KC is just not a boom/bust kind of city. It moves slow, haltingly, maddeningly so, at times. But its valleys are as shallow as its peaks are low. As far as I can tell, its always been that way with about 10 years exception in the mid 1920s-30s. I honestly think KC is legitmately a place that if you don't like it, you should move away from, because likely it will not change a great deal in your lifetime.

There is also, for the record, not a damn thing going on in Cincinnati, Ohio that isn't going on in KC.

I agree with all of what you said. Yes, Denver really does lack a soul. It's gentrified to the point of annoyance. But as somebody that really likes transit oriented city and cities that are very active, I personally think that makes up for it. I never said Denver is a better city than KC as both cities really offer very similar amenities etc, but despite the "bland" characteristics of Denver, they are dong a lot of things right.

I only mentioned Cincy because I think they have recently had some pretty big announcements of huge investments downtown by the private business community such as

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/bus ... ati/ngPHC/

http://www.wcpo.com/money/local-busines ... om-norwood

and of course the recent construction of the Great American Tower by a local company that is obviously committed to downtown Cincy.

Not to mention how the Covington side is really emerging while Downtown KCK is a total mess. I have always though downtown KCK could becoming something like Covington.

Again, I'm not saying Cincy is better than KC. I think KC and Cincy are generally equal with both cities not quite hitting on all cylinders, but it seems like KC never has any press releases to announce a major downtown tower or company moving from the suburbs to downtown, stories that are quite frequent now in most cities.

While KC may never see a "boom" and that may be just fine, however If KC ever stops bleeding to the suburbs and the existing business that left for the suburbs ever start moving back to the city (to a place other than the plaza), then KC would immediately take off and drastically change for the better. Right now, that's the big missing piece to the puzzle in KC that keeps it from truly competing with places like Denver.

[kboish]

We definitely need to get the business community to figure out that a strong core city is in their interest and no one in the country is impressed with their suburban KC office park.

Relevant:

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... ation.html

Currently, there are 12 Henderson employees in the Kansas City branch and Smith wants to increase that count to 25 by the end of the year. The overall goal for the office is to have 45 or possibly 50 employees in the space.
"The thing that really started to hit home for me was kind of this employee engagement factor. We tend to be an employee-first company and a lot of the decisions that we make are geared toward that, so when we started to see and hear people actively wanting to live and work and be part of the urban core, it gets your attention," Smith said. "We're just firm believers in Downtown and Kansas City, and a lot of our work is national and so when we travel we're from Kansas City. So there's a civic responsibility to be a part of the urban core."

[brewcrew1000]

Crime is much much worse in Baltimore and he uses Baltimore as an example in his argument. I think Baltimore has passed NYC in Murders this year.

[GRID]

Crime is much much worse in Baltimore and he uses Baltimore as an example in his argument. I think Baltimore has passed NYC in Murders this year.

That was my point in bringing up Baltimore. Despite the out of control crime, they have about the same amount or more residential construction in the downtown/fells point/federal hill/harbor east area including several towers going up. But more importantly, they have a ton more commercial development going up with several office towers and millions of sq ft of office space planned to go up soon spec. The old downtown core office space is going through what KC's is, high office vacancy and conversions of older offices to residential. But the difference between KC and Baltimore is companies are staying or expanding in the downtown region rather than going to the suburbs. Harbor East and other areas are about as close to the CBD as Crown Center is to KC's CBD and they are booming. This is despite the wild crime problems the city has. So my point is that if cities like Baltimore and Pittsburgh and Cleveland and Cincinnati are able to overcome far more challenges (crime/rustbelt economy etc) then KC should be doing at least as well in the same area with it's more western economy and built environment.

The only thing KC is really missing now is the corporate commitment to the urban core, but that's a big one to be missing.