Possible future multi-use development

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby moderne » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:55 pm

It was an actual Velvet Freeze ice cream parlor. In the sixties there were at least a dozen around the metro.

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby FangKC » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:21 am

KCroots wrote:
beautyfromashes wrote:I wouldn't think Warwick and Main would be a good location. It seems you have a connection to Union Station. Why don't you work with the city on changes to Washington Square Park that have been discussed http://kcrag.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19440&hilit=washington+square+park.


Please explain in some detail why you don’t think Main and Warwick would work


My connection to that area is the fact I was born at St. Mary's Hospital there on Main Street (where the Federal Reserve Bank now sits). As a child I would visit Union Station and spent a lot of time in the general neighborhood. My Grandfather (who I never knew, and died before I was born) worked for the Union Pacific Railroad back in the hey-day of the railroad. What boy growing up back then didn't like trains? I'd visit another train museum / rail yard at the base of the Broadway Bridge that sat at W 2nd Street and Wyandotte Street. That small rail yard is long gone and a new development sits there, but so goes life. By the way and a little off topic, if anyone has any decent pictures of the old St. Mary's Hospital I sure would appreciate seeing them.


Here's a photo of the former St. Mary's Hospital building before they tore it down.

Image

Image

Photos at the Kansas City Public Library Special Collections photo database.

http://kchistory.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Askren&CISOPTR=115&CISOBOX=1&REC=9

http://kchistory.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Askren&CISOPTR=124&CISOBOX=1&REC=11

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby KCroots » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:49 am

Thank you Fang, I appreciate the images.

It's interesting to see all the changes that have been made to just that little area.

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby chaglang » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:07 am

moderne wrote:The Velvet Freeze would be a prime location for such a diner. Soon there will be an additional 300 people living on Union Hill in the new apartments and homes. The little coffee shop down the road is always packed. In addition to the large local population in walking range, there is good visibility from 2 arterial streets and lots of street parking.

There are also new businesses going in immediately to the east, of Velvet Freeze at 31st and Cherry. And that corridor of buildings on Cherry between 31st and The Filling Station is poised for a huge comeback. There's a LOT of potential there.

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby KCroots » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:20 am

It looks as if I am posting in two different sections of this board, originally I wanted to develop in the Crossroads section thus why I started this thread in the Downtown section of the board and I’m still open to the Crossroads for a development but I am also keeping other options open as well. I’ll post about Union Hill in the Union Hill thread to keep everything on Topic and in the correct place.

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby HalcyonKC » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:43 am

This building has been listed for sale from time to time over the past few years. It is at the north edge of the Garment District in downtown. It housed the "Oggi" modern furniture store for many years, which closed up shop when the economy slowed down. More recently it had a second brief run as an furniture-focused extension of the River Market Antique Mall, but that didn't seem to last long.

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/18438712 ... s-City-MO/

The building already has a giant loft space on the top floor. I think the present owners once lived there before moving on to other interests. It was rented out to a tenant last I heard, to keep an eye on things. The basement thru third floors would presently be vacant, which could be in line of your idea of living upstairs and running business space downstairs. I think what hurts this area for retail businesses is the relative lack of foot traffic through the neighborhood, so I really doubt a clothing store would do well. On the other hand, the site has visibility from I-70 so any business that did locate there would have lots of eyeballs potentially glancing up at its signage. It does have parking available in an adjacent alley and (I think) the small parking lot in back. There are some small bars/restaurants/cafe's two blocks down on 8th street, so that type of business is not unprecedented in the area. The adjacent residential market nearby is pretty mature at this point--lots of loft dwellers, low vacancy rates--so a small cafe might do ok. As a living space, you would be walking distance from the City Market and many other businesses in the River Market, so you would likely enjoy the neighborhood.

All of my information comes from chatting with the sales clerks a few months ago when the Antique Mall was running it, so it's subject to the twists and turns of hearsay and being out-of-date.

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby taxi » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:27 am

HalcyonKC wrote: I think what hurts this area for retail businesses is the relative lack of foot traffic through the neighborhood, so I really doubt a clothing store would do well.

Not after they cap the loop!

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby flyingember » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:31 am

600 Central is a hard spot. I've been there when it was an antique store bought an old camera from them for my collection

it's the back side of a bunch of residential buildings and alienated beyond that

it's not really ADA compliant for the main entrance, the wonderful historic stairs add to the complexity. so your uses are limited there.

I believe the parking behind is KC Loft Space's. it's a good transit-friendly building in that regards but it's not really near much service

6th really isn't a popular street for car traffic relative to it's size, everyone uses 9th, Wyandotte and Broadway. which would make 6th, Wyandotte to Broadway, a good two-way conversion candidate.
Central isn't a popular street to go down in general because there's no bridge, might as well go one block over either way.
and 6th and Central both being one-way, you have to understand how to get to this spot

It's not actually that visible from I-70, the angle is wrong with all the bridges and the trench. any sign would have a very short period of visibility

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby HalcyonKC » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:33 pm

You're absolutely right about the potential ADA issue with the stairs in the entrance--I had forgotten about those.

Parking: I can see this building from my window, hence I frequently wonder what will eventually become of it--I really think that the little lot immediately behind 600 Central goes with the building. This is divided from the much larger KC Loft Space lot to its rear by an iron fence and some bushes. It's not huge but coupled with alley parking, that would give 600 Central 20-ish dedicated spaces.

Central actually is a two way street on this block, but I think you're probably right about visibility not being the greatest from I-70 itself since the highway is down in the trench. Visibility of the building itself is probably better for people who are passing by the southern edge of the River Market on Independence and happen to glance over, and getting there might seem a little complex to access for someone not familiar with the neighborhood.

I've always thought this building might be attractive for a small office involved in some kind of creative industry, or as an outright loft conversion itself.

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby KCroots » Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:23 pm

I’ve decided to simply build new therefore I will no longer be considering any older buildings. As much as I would really love to save an older building there is just too many conflicts / details in considering an older building to bring it up to the needs of this project.

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby KCroots » Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:54 pm

Underground parking


Anyone know the soil conditions in the crossroads in terms of going subterranean? How many levels below street level can a parking garage go? Or are there any buildings with multiple underground levels in the crossroads and if so how many levels down?

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby flyingember » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:43 pm

KCroots wrote:Underground parking


Anyone know the soil conditions in the crossroads in terms of going subterranean? How many levels below street level can a parking garage go? Or are there any buildings with multiple underground levels in the crossroads and if so how many levels down?


Depends on what part. Downtown is a series of rocky bluffs with filled creeks in different areas. That's where the material from the river market went.

The Kauffman center warfare went, what, 4 stories down?

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby KCroots » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:15 pm

flyingember wrote:Depends on what part. Downtown is a series of rocky bluffs with filled creeks in different areas. That's where the material from the river market went.

The Kauffman center warfare went, what, 4 stories down?




Anything in the Crossroads along Main Street, that or Baltimore or Walnut. At least 3 floors down, nut much deeper.

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby FangKC » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:46 am

I think at least one of the parking garages in the Power & Light District, between Walnut and Grand, went the equivalent of five stories down.

http://kcrag.com/viewtopic.php?p=122717#p122717

Here is another photo of the excavation of the parcels below the Cosentino's Market. Looks like it was mostly soil.

Image

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby KCroots » Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:54 am

Thanks Fang!


I have to tell you I am doing a lot of general research for the feasibility of this project and at times I find sobering realities that make it difficult to think it will work. I’m also just very sad Kansas City has bulldozed so much of its history and old buildings and today is just a patch work of empty lots and neighborhoods with little hope of really redeveloping very quickly.

I told a friend recently I was considering as part of my retirement plans a move to Kansas City and his response was;

“Why the hell would you want to live in that shit hole or a nothingness city”

I explained I was born there and just felt a connection to Kansas City but even after that he still felt I was crazy for wanting to live in a city of nothingness. He said he didn’t think he would even visit me if I lived there as there was nothing to do there which couldn’t be done in other nicer cities which left me to just drop the conversation out of fear of me eventually punching him.

I love Kansas City but deep down inside I secretly had to agree with him on the part that Kansas City really doesn’t have anything special to offer anyone from outside or anyone who doesn’t have a connection to the city. Am I wrong, what attractions does Kansas City have that sets it apart from other large cities?

This past week hasn’t been very encouraging for this project. Apart from the land issues and trying to determine the general set up I’m still looking at overall locations, the demographics, the economic indicators, retail numbers, and general history on the neighborhoods as well as the history of past retail companies that once were regional mainstays.

Any of you guys remember Stix, Baer & Fuller, or several of the older store chains that are no longer around. My point is that the entire face of retail has changed and that too plays a huge part in it all. Does no good to build a restaurant int he crossroads if there isn't enough traffic to support it. Goes back to the chicken and egg argument and the fact Kansas City managers didn't have the foresight to foresee the problems of having all the surface lots or the remedy to fix the problem once they realized their errors only adds more hesitation to want to locate there.

I spent the past few days reading all the threads about the CC Plaza and I have to say although it is the premier shopping district in the region there is just too much turn over and management issues for me to even considered a location there. The CC Plaza will always be the crown jewel to the city but only due to its architecture and history but not for the mainstream commercial tenants it seems to be interested in having. Take away the yearly X-Mas lights and allow the current management to continue allowing tenants to remake their spaces and take the original charm away and you have nothing but an over sized mall which can be found anywhere in the USA.

I might just get so discouraged that I might convince myself that building a small residential building in an urban neighborhood like Union Hill that has a small street level commercial local and an underground parking garage just for my personal vehicles might just be much easier and then call it a day.

Sorry for the negative rant it's just all the details and realities can be frustrating

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby chaglang » Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:41 am

Man, I've been there. When we moved back from Boston (I'm from here, wife's an east coast native), we got a lot of "oh, that's nice for you" type of comments. Approximately 0 people were excited for us. Mostly because nobody had ever been here. I grew up here, so sometimes I kind of take KC for granted. But every time we have people come in town to visit, I'm amazed at how impressed they are. Our guests inevitably fall in love with someplace that wasn't on our radar at all. It's not a city that will blow you away the moment you step off the plane. But if you stay a few days, it hooks you hard. It's not hard to put together days and days of art galleries and museums followed by dining and drinks in neighborhood like the Westside, 39th, Crossroads, River Market, etc, etc, etc. 20 or 30 years ago your friend would have had a point. But you know from being on this forum that the city's changing dramatically.

Honestly, your backup plan of building a small residential building in an urban neighborhood with small street level commercial local and an underground parking garage sounds pretty damn good. There probably isn't a neighborhood between downtown and Brush Creek that would turn down that kind of development.

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby droopy » Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:09 am

chaglang wrote:Man, I've been there. When we moved back from Boston (I'm from here, wife's an east coast native), we got a lot of "oh, that's nice for you" type of comments. Approximately 0 people were excited for us. Mostly because nobody had ever been here. I grew up here, so sometimes I kind of take KC for granted. But every time we have people come in town to visit, I'm amazed at how impressed they are. Our guests inevitably fall in love with someplace that wasn't on our radar at all. It's not a city that will blow you away the moment you step off the plane. But if you stay a few days, it hooks you hard. It's not hard to put together days and days of art galleries and museums followed by dining and drinks in neighborhood like the Westside, 39th, Crossroads, River Market, etc, etc, etc. 20 or 30 years ago your friend would have had a point. But you know from being on this forum that the city's changing dramatically.

Honestly, your backup plan of building a small residential building in an urban neighborhood with small street level commercial local and an underground parking garage sounds pretty damn good. There probably isn't a neighborhood between downtown and Brush Creek that would turn down that kind of development.


All of this went through my mind when reading KCRoots' last post as well. The majority of my family and friends are from Boston, Toronto, Minneapolis and LA. I can't remember a single one that did not enthusiastically vocalize how impressed they were with KC after visiting. Many of them prior to Kauffman, Sprint Center, etc being built. Stereotypes and reputations are not necessarily true for much of KC, particularly now.

KCRoots, if I may ask and maybe you've said, where are you coming from (that your friend would be so negative as to say he wouldn't even visit) and how much time have you actually spent in KC in the last decade?

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby FangKC » Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:40 am

Kcroots, if it makes any difference, I moved here after living in New York City. I'm happy here, and there are plenty of things to do if you seek them out.

I can say that most people have the wrong impression about Kansas City. It's mostly because they haven't spent any time here.

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby dnweava » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:25 pm

KCroots wrote:Thanks Fang!

“Why the hell would you want to live in that shit hole or a nothingness city”

I explained I was born there and just felt a connection to Kansas City but even after that he still felt I was crazy for wanting to live in a city of nothingness. He said he didn’t think he would even visit me if I lived there as there was nothing to do there which couldn’t be done in other nicer cities which left me to just drop the conversation out of fear of me eventually punching him.



sounds like your friend is an asshole.

There is plenty of things in KC you can't get on the coasts. It's no NYC but if somebody can't enjoy a vacation in KC its because of them, not because of KC.

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Re: Possible future multi-use development

Postby KCroots » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:35 pm

Well honestly l probably wouldn’t even have Kansas City on my radar if it wasn’t the fact I was born there and lived the first years of my life there. I have fond memories of Kansas City and still feel that special bond that’s too deep to explain with words. Often times our memories are not what they seem or are just different than what the current reality might be but nonetheless such childhood memories are engrained in us all.

Having lived my entire adult life away from Kansas City I can say I really do not know the city as well as I use to. My last visit to KCMO has been more than 20 years ago and although I try to stay informed and updated with the city by visiting it via Google Earth I will concede it’s just not the same as seeing it in person.

My friend that made the comment about Kansas City being a city of nothingness divides his time between Phoenix AZ and his property in the rural mountains of northern Idaho. He has only passed through Kansas City driving and said he couldn’t get out of that hickish Midwest hell hole fast enough so I assumed it wasn’t just Kansas City proper that he disliked but the Midwest in general. Some people are funny that way and you know I’d never want to live in Phoenix or even really like to visit there on my own unless it was to visit friends; AZ just doesn’t interest me as I have no connection or ties to the place.

In speaking to a lot of people they just don’t know anything about Kansas City or have a perception it’s just a blue collar hick city. As you all know perceptions are often times hard to overcome but truthfully there really isn’t anything that sets Kansas City apart from every other major city, heck most cities at least have something special to offer. Kansas City is not a “destination” city for most people unless its work related or conventions and even then convention business is not that strong in KCMO.

I'm guilty of this perception thing too, because if you ask me what I think of St Louis MO. the first thing that comes to mind is images of a run down dirty “has been” city and images of East St Louis which many St Louis residents will argue is not Missouri but I can’t help connecting the two in my perception. I often think many people feel or think of Kansas City the same way, unless they have been there or know the city.

I lived in the St Louis area back in 1972 for a year and my family lived in Chesterfield which at the time was more rural than it is today. I remember Shaw’s Botanical Gardens and a few other nice things about St Louis but overall other than living there then and never going back I don’t have the same “connection” so I have no interest or very many memories of St Louis. That’s not to say anything bad it’s just I don’t feel anything for that nice city or have any desire to even visit there unless to visit the one relative I have that still lives there but that’s highly doubtful.




chaglang wrote:Honestly, your backup plan of building a small residential building in an urban neighborhood with small street level commercial local and an underground parking garage sounds pretty damn good. There probably isn't a neighborhood between downtown and Brush Creek that would turn down that kind of development.



Yes and I really like the looks of the development pictured here below.

Image

I could build something like this and if the right place it would be neat. Again I just feel "stuck" on this entire Kansas City thing


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