Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
KCMax wrote:One side of the bar will be for Ed Hardy-wearing d-bags, the other side will be for striped shirt-wearing d-bags.
I don't know where you get that vibe at all. Have you ever been to a karaoke bar with the private rooms? They are awesome.
The other part sounds like a better version of Bier Station. I mentioned Beer Revolution in Oakland as an example of a great version of this. It was hipsters out the yin yang there, so I don't see where you get the image of Ed Hardy folks, especially at a place that doesn't serve Bud Light Lime. However, if the owners are Ed Hardy, Aflliction types, then I have little faith in the plan.
The only way they attract the crowds KcMax is talking about is if they target them. There is nothing inherent in either concept to attract those types of crowds...I hope they don't. I've been to similar concepts in Brooklyn and they were fantastic. The deli concept depends completely on the type of vibe in the place, quality of "deli" (or what they even mean by this) and selection of beer they put out.
Karaoke isn't my thing, but I definitely see how this could be quite popular with a variety of crowds. Seems like it will be a fad (for KC) and then fade though.
As Westport turns from metro party zone to more like a neighborhood+ town center, 'concept' and especially 'theme' bars don't go over very well with Midtowners. This one might do OK for a while but probably would do better downtown/P&L. Better this than what was there.
BTW, maybe the thread should be renamed to just Westport. We have the answer that P&L is now the metro party zone and Westport is becoming (mostly) a neighborhood+ center. P&L has improved Westport.
I work with a couple of people who live in JoCo and don't frequent any bar/nightlife scene and their perception is oddly (predictably?) out of touch with what is going on. Whenever they talk with an out of towner about KC and PnL I always hear them talk about how PnL killed Westport. I've tried to correct them or at least engage them as to why they think this is, but have decided to just let it go. It makes me wonder why they think that and where they get there info from? like i said, they frequent neither of these places, but just some insight into the JoCo mind.
Yeah, P&L has helped reduce the 'bridge & tunnel' party crowd into Westport. Downtown needed the boost. Everyone wins.
As a 64111'r, would like to see Westport businesses focus on catering to Midtown neighborhood sensibilities that is still welcoming to all. That's happening more and more however when a biz tries to specifically draw from metro/tourists but is not a good match for Midtowners, it likely won't do very well. Downtown and Plaza are best for that. Will be interesting to see if Midtowners latch onto karaoke - I'd be surprised but doesn't hurt to try. Am glad to see them invest in Westport - Midtowners will decide if they survive.
Maybe time to rename the thread to Westport _neighborhood_ or maybe a new thread that is not in context to P&L anymore.
I don't really get the skepticism in this thread. People are only allowed to open neighborhood bars in Westport? Any sort of concept beyond "sit at the bar and drink" is too much for midtowners?
Not particularly that. The reality is that contrived 'theme' bars generally don't go over very well in Westport. We're talking about a neighborhood where Starbucks didn't even make it. This concept could work if done right, glad to see them invest in Westport and give it a shot. Sounds risky to me though. A Missie B's type place or underground music venue would have better chance but will be interesting to see if this works.
My point is that if they target the metro and tourists and is not appealing to Midtowners, it may not survive now that Westport is becoming more of a neighborhood center and less of a metro party zone.
earthling wrote:Not particularly that. The reality is that contrived 'theme' bars generally don't go over very well in Westport. This concept could work if done right, glad to see them invest in Westport and give it a shot. Sounds risky to me though. A Missie B's type place or underground music venue would have better chance but will be interesting to see if this works.
I guess I just don't really see how these are "theme" bars. A place where you can rent out rooms for private parties seems like a concept that doesn't exist in KC as far as I know and isn't a bad idea. And, how does serving a deli sandwich instead of a burger take a bar to "contrived theme bar" territory?
Will be interesting to see if karaoke type private party rooms work in Midtown. When I first saw that, P&L seemed a better match. Hotel crowds tend to keep karaoke type places going and Westport doesn't have many. Glad to see them give it a shot. The beer deli sounds like a good idea - I don't think anyone was wary of that part.
kboish wrote: The deli concept depends completely on the type of vibe in the place, quality of "deli" (or what they even mean by this) and selection of beer they put out.
Yeah, would be great to get an E Coast deli in Westport with capicola, prosciutto, genoa salami, mortadella, etc. Only a few places in KC like Carollo's (city market) and Bella Napoli (bside).
Good quality E Coast subs and kosher style deli sammys are built like this...
Most sub places in KC are not really _subs_, which are mostly watered down with bottom of barrel lettuce (iceberg), cheap meats/cheese and poor grade of bread. But that's mostly the case anywhere outside E Coast. d'Bronx in KC is not at all E Coast subs/sammys - a first world problem. Carollo's and Bella Napoli are closest I've seen in KC, but still not this.
earthling wrote:
Most sub places in KC are not really _subs_, which are mostly watered down with bottom of barrel lettuce (iceberg), cheap meats/cheese and poor grade of bread. But that's mostly the case anywhere outside E Coast.
^Yeah, there is below par everywhere but you can find above avg more often on E Coast (particularly NYC/Jersey/Philly) than elsewhere. And it doesn't have to be stacked that much, just an effort for quality rather than as low grade as they can get by with. Would be nice to see something between Carollo's/Bella Napoli and Whitehouse Subs/Jersey or even Katz/NYC (kosher style deli) in Westport, rather than a d'Bronx or less.
A good quality deli counter with upper grade meats/cheeses/breads and cold deli sides in Westport would likely be supported well even if a few bucks more than others.
bbqboy wrote:Delis are a fading genre in NYC. Times change.
Well not as prevalent as every functional hood now wants a variety of ethnic eats. But many NYC hoods still have a counter deli or two. My brother lived in Brooklyn Heights until recently and had several above average delis, he's now in Williamsburg and has several but more spread apart. NYC delis aren't as dominating as they used to be as people want more variety in a hood.
Is cheaper to operate a chain sub shop than an old school deli so it's a natural de-evolution of the real thing. Is nice though when some make an effort for quality and Westport could probably support one. Sounds like someone is giving it a shot, hopefully they go for quality over yet another sub-par one.
bbqboy wrote:Delis are a fading genre in NYC. Times change.
Well not as prevalent as every functional hood now wants a variety of ethnic eats. But many NYC hoods still have a counter deli or two. My brother lived in Brooklyn Heights until recently and had several above average delis, he's now in Williamsburg and has a couple. But of course it's not as dominating as it used to be as people want more variety in a hood.
Is cheaper to operate a chain sub shop than an old school deli so it's a natural de-evolution of the real thing. Is nice though when some make an effort for quality and Westport could probably support one. Sounds like someone is giving it a shot, hopefully they go for quality over yet another sub-par one.
Indeed. I'm not saying it is a good thing necessarily, just that changing ethnic makeup of hoods means the old Italian or Jewish delis are period pieces.
Kenny and Zukes in Portland have successfully bridged the gap between old school and new, making their own Pastrami to great acclaim, for instance. www.kennyandzukes.com
Yup, hopefully the one coming to Westport is thinking along those lines. And there is another deli coming to E side of Westport in old Broadway Cafe roasting spot, next to 303 restaurant.
earthling wrote:or even Katz/NYC (kosher style deli) in Westport
there's no market for a kosher deli in KC. A place that's similar, perhaps, but Kosher? won't work.
the closest thing to a Kosher deli that KC had was the subway next to Children's Mercy South/The Convention Center. But they started carrying cheese a while back.
^I was careful to say kosher 'style', which isn't traditional kosher. It's an actual separate classification that has a little more mass apeal... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_style
Katz isn't traditional kosher either. If Westport can support a Moroccan restaurant (and it does), it can support a non-trad kosher 'style' place similar to Katz.
