Designing intersections without traffic control devices

[OPIchabod]

Hey gang!

Been a long time since I've posted, but excited to get back in the flow of following posts on the forum.

I came across a story on Atlantic Cities today about an intersection in England where engineers removed nearly all formal traffic control (stop lights, road markings) in an effort to restore "vitality" to that portion of the town:

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commut ... calm/5152/

Without speaking of the positives and challenges of such a plan, it did occur to me that this in some ways explains the vibrancy of the Plaza.

What other parts of KC could benefit from this kind of treatment, and would it ever work?

[chaglang]

The Plaza seems pretty well blanketed with traffic control now. I haven't noticed much of a difference in vibrancy.

I could see parts of the River Market or Crossroads doing this with come success. But the city would probably be hesitant to try it, considering the resistance the citywide stoplight diet was met with.

[flyingember]

Without speaking of the positives and challenges of such a plan, it did occur to me that this in some ways explains the vibrancy of the Plaza

lack of traffic controls at the plaza? not in the slightest

there's substantial traffic controls along the plaza from one-way streets to no turns allowed to street lights at 8 spots inside the plaza core

beyond that, drivers actually drive in a manner to hinder traffic. I've seen pedestrians cross where a driver's trying to turn to and cars will back up 5+ deep. I've seen this at a dozen intersections inside the plaza.

in fact, despite that a US Route runs right down the middle, and three major north-south routes come to it, I'd say the pedestrian and car control for the movement of both is what makes the plaza work

there's certainly places less controls could work, but the plaza isn't it. there's too many cars and too many people in one place trying to coexist. we need the stop lights to let groups of pedestrians cross

[longviewmo]

I think he's referring to the fact that there's not a stoplight on every single corner at the Plaza. I'd attribute that to its age. If it was built now, they'd probably slap one at every place people cross.

[flyingember]

I think he's referring to the fact that there's not a stoplight on every single corner at the Plaza. I'd attribute that to its age. If it was built now, they'd probably slap one at every place people cross.

true. only a third of intersections have a stop light

[taxi]

There used to be very little traffic control measures on the Plaza. I was always amazed at how well it worked, but peds ruled. "They" have been adding them steadily over the last 20 years. Some dumbass probably got runned over and then some genius decided we'd better blanket the area with traffic lights. Jeez, some people.

[pash]

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[grovester]

When I was in San Francisco recently, I noticed that they seem to opt for stop signs over lights in a lot of areas. Not only does it keep traffic from getting up to high speeds, but it helps foster a sense of low traffic, as you're rarely stopped completely.

[pash]

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[pash]

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[taxi]

When I become king, or mayor, I will banish all stop lights. Major thoroughfares will run freely and side streets will have yield signs. Only stop signs in extreme situations and peds always have the ROW.
When I learned to drive (long ago, picture a Flintstones car), the Plaza confused me until my dad explained that you always yield to peds. And when on foot, I would and still do force that dominance. "Yield to Pedestrians" signs would help.
Lately, many stoplights around town have been replaced with stop signs and it always seems to work better. Of course, streets like Metcalf are too big/wide and need lights. But that is in that other state and I can generally avoid them. On the other hand, I had to get to Micro Center last night before they closed and it took me 17 minutes from Columbus Park, less time than it takes for me to get to Ward Parkway Shopping Center. I'm always amazed at how fast traveling on Metcalf is, even though there are few lights like at 91st that seem to be hours long. But after 103rd, if gets ridiculous.

[flyingember]

lack of traffic controls at the plaza? not in the slightest

there's substantial traffic controls along the plaza from one-way streets to no turns allowed to street lights at 8 spots inside the plaza core

One thing still really annoys me about a couple of roads on the Plaza (and elsewhere): there are a number of places where from one side of an intersection to the other the road narrows from two lanes to one without any indication of which lane is the through lane and which is a turn lane.

I'm opening a 311 ticket on this. they actually put a new traffic control sign in the 700 block of Main for one of my tickets.

I found one of note, Broadway northbound between Ward Pkwy and 47th.

Ward Parkway to Nichols it has two through lanes
then past Nichols it suddenly becomes one lane wide with parking.

the simplest fix is to make on of the lanes at Nichols into a turn only lane
the alternative is to remove parking from Broadway between Nichols and 47th and restripe, but I don't see the point with the other option available

[OPIchabod]

As someone who recently lived two years downtown and just over to the Plaza, just in the first week living and walking on the Plaza, it's been a night/day difference in the treatment of pedestrians.

Even in the River Market area, which IMO is set up more like a small village, the pedestrians are still subservient to the car.

And in downtown and in the Crossroads, despite being higher-density areas, cars still dominate.

There's something about driving on the Plaza that makes motorists leery of driving at higher speeds. Whatever that variable(s) is, I'd be excited to replicate it elsewhere in the metro.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

As someone who recently lived two years downtown and just over to the Plaza, just in the first week living and walking on the Plaza, it's been a night/day difference in the treatment of pedestrians.

Even in the River Market area, which IMO is set up more like a small village, the pedestrians are still subservient to the car.

And in downtown and in the Crossroads, despite being higher-density areas, cars still dominate.

There's something about driving on the Plaza that makes motorists leery of driving at higher speeds. Whatever that variable(s) is, I'd be excited to replicate it elsewhere in the metro.

Signs/more pedestrians

[pash]

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[KCMax]

When I become king, or mayor, I will banish all stop lights. Major thoroughfares will run freely and side streets will have yield signs. Only stop signs in extreme situations and peds always have the ROW.
When I learned to drive (long ago, picture a Flintstones car), the Plaza confused me until my dad explained that you always yield to peds. And when on foot, I would and still do force that dominance. "Yield to Pedestrians" signs would help.
Lately, many stoplights around town have been replaced with stop signs and it always seems to work better. Of course, streets like Metcalf are too big/wide and need lights. But that is in that other state and I can generally avoid them. On the other hand, I had to get to Micro Center last night before they closed and it took me 17 minutes from Columbus Park, less time than it takes for me to get to Ward Parkway Shopping Center. I'm always amazed at how fast traveling on Metcalf is, even though there are few lights like at 91st that seem to be hours long. But after 103rd, if gets ridiculous.

Yield to Pedestrian signs don't seem to work IMO.

I would simply make it so that 47th has a big plaza in the middle of it so you can't drive from one end of the Plaza to another. That would cut down on a ton of traffic.

But yes, there are benefits to reducing signage and traffic controls. It gets drivers to think about driving rather than relying on signs to tell them what to do. I think the only problem with America is that we're so conditioned to rely on signs, you'd need a removal of traffic controls to be much more widespread than a shopping district - it would have to be city wide or statewide so that people are already conditioned to drive to be aware of their surroundings.

[flyingember]

a plaza isn't a bad idea

how would you reroute US 56 to do this?

[flyingember]

I found one of note, Broadway northbound between Ward Pkwy and 47th.

Yeah, every time I drive through here, it seems, people go straight from both lanes. I looked on Google Streetview (the photo dates from 2011) and there is a very faded left-turn arrow visible on Broadway south of 47th, but I don't think you can see it now.

I guess I should try to get in the habit of 311-ing these things. They actually are somewhat responsive.

I suggested a sign at Nichols to force one direction to be a turn lane.

either way as turn only is acceptable here

[KCMax]

a plaza isn't a bad idea

how would you reroute US 56 to do this?

I'm fine with that being an arterial, but all the interior streets of the Plaza do not need to be thru streets IMO.

[flyingember]

a plaza isn't a bad idea

how would you reroute US 56 to do this?

I'm fine with that being an arterial, but all the interior streets of the Plaza do not need to be thru streets IMO.

It sounds like you're ok with 47th not being a pedestrian plaza now.

Because 47th St is an arterial street. It's been one since the 1920s. It's carried US 50 and then US 56 since 1926.