KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[flyingember]

i've been quoted back to myself. weird.

I figured even you can't remember everything.

and it was easier to find there than on the NKC website

[flyingember]

I'll throw another reason into the NKC pot to use for reasons to use with unsure people. available property
http://nkc.org/docview.aspx?docid=19623

The goal of the streetcar is of course redevelopment for jobs. NKC has the zoning for blue collar businesses and these jobs will benefit the individuals who live in areas the Phase II expansion wants to go more than downtown or Plaza jobs do. We need to be realistic that most people who don't have a car and can only afford to live in the NE district probably aren't as employable in a downtown office as they are in an industrial job and plan accordingly.

That document has 2.2 million square feet available in almost 100 properties. That's a huge opportunity for KC. NKC already has a bus circular that can be expanded with more service from the current 142 line busses that won't need to go downtown.

KCMO will benefit if it can get people in the NE district to blue collar jobs easily.

[flyingember]

The SW Boulevard line seems to be the least needed. I don't see a big payoff for that line. I'd rather see one run down Linwood or 31st Street to at least Benton, or Armour Boulevard to Bruce Watkins Drive. Armour would probably be the best, since it has a lot of apartment buildings already along it, and potential for new ones to be constructed.

That makes complete sense. Go take a look at what's a long that area from an aerial view

http://www.bing.com/maps/#JnE9LjY0MTA1J ... QwNzgzNjkx

1. blue collars businesses such as Boulevard and even more heading into KCK

2. low income housing on both sides


And there's no bus service on that corridor today.

[flyingember]

I rode the NOLA streetcar when we were there a year ago. Took an 11 month old on it.

Things of note

1. being a long line the drivers would let you out anywhere on it. the pickup spots were every few blocks though
2. people used the grassy strip for running all the time
3. drivers didn't care if they blocked the streetcar. The city has no left turns along the line, people use U-turn spots and they would just sit there waiting for a spot in traffic.
4. the headway was the expected 5 minutes or so all the way to 45 minutes.
5. As far as speed, my now sister in law could beat the streetcars on her bike. See item 4.
6. they were very popular with the tourists. We even talked with a family who rode the line out and back as a part of a back to school tradition.
7. the line near the French Quarter was always busy.
8. tons of workers used it. on their loop where the line ends/begins it would fill up instantly
9. they have 3 lines and are working to expand to 6.
10. the property along the line is crazy expensive in some places. There's mansions along miles of the line. A few blocks away is some of the poorest neighborhoods but I was told NOLA is weird like that across the whole city in a checkerboard pattern and that's not a streetcar result.
11. they weren't bike friendly at all. The Minneapolis light rail was far better for this. We need to do like the busses have and put some kind of rack on the outside of our vehicles.
12. work with the KCATA and go contactless on the cards if at all possible. the drivers were as likely to skip swiping cards as not to speed things up.
13. position the reader so someone paying for a fare with cash doesn't block it.
14. the turnaround at the end of one line slowed things down. but I'd say waiting to space out vehicles is more important than leaving quickly and this wasn't what they were doing
15. it was hard to tell if a vehicle was full. some sort of standing room only notice would have been nice before trying to get on.
16. they didn't sell the longer passes on the vehicle. having kiosks to sell cards via credit card at the major stations would be a smart idea.
17. covered seating at stops is worth the cost.
18. being in the median worked because of long pedestrian cycles.

Kid specific
1. there was no good place to put a stroller. This would be one thing worth looking at. Tourism use means families.
2. level boarding is important for children and things for children is ADA compliant. I never saw someone on crutches use the line.
3. seating wasn't kid friendly. Minneapolis was worse as it was hard to get close with real seats.
4. he fell asleep once riding the line.

[DaveKCMO]

remember the financing approach, though... strong political support and enough value to capture in a TDD to pay for a large portion of construction and operations. i'm not keen on putting a streetcar where there's no bus service today.

[flyingember]

remember the financing approach, though... strong political support and enough value to capture in a TDD to pay for a large portion of construction and operations. i'm not keen on putting a streetcar where there's no bus service today.

that is true. I guess the first question to ask then is why there isn't along that section.

[smh]

Don't forget that the KC Streetcar will not be the historic "trolley"-style cars found in NOLA. It will be modern and accommodating of bicycles, much like Portland and Seattle which have hooks in each car for a couple of bicycles.

[flyingember]

Don't forget that the KC Streetcar will not be the historic "trolley"-style cars found in NOLA. It will be modern and accommodating of bicycles, much like Portland and Seattle which have hooks in each car for a couple of bicycles.

hopefully it stays that way. I'm sure that's easily removed to put in more seats.

my point was that not being bike friendly was a downside to that system and ours should be bike friendly.

NOLA could easily add bike racks to the outside like our busses have.

[smh]

Don't forget that the KC Streetcar will not be the historic "trolley"-style cars found in NOLA. It will be modern and accommodating of bicycles, much like Portland and Seattle which have hooks in each car for a couple of bicycles.

hopefully it stays that way. I'm sure that's easily removed to put in more seats.

my point was that not being bike friendly was a downside to that system and ours should be bike friendly.

NOLA could easily add bike racks to the outside like our busses have.

Ahh, got it. Well, if it's any additional consolation, the bike hooks tend to be in the area near the doors which is only really suited for standing and not particularly vulnerable to the addition of more seats. Having just observed bikes on the streetcar but never taking my own, it appears you just hook your bike and then sort of stand with it--and this somehow does not block the doors...

[flyingember]

Don't forget that the KC Streetcar will not be the historic "trolley"-style cars found in NOLA. It will be modern and accommodating of bicycles, much like Portland and Seattle which have hooks in each car for a couple of bicycles.

hopefully it stays that way. I'm sure that's easily removed to put in more seats.

my point was that not being bike friendly was a downside to that system and ours should be bike friendly.

NOLA could easily add bike racks to the outside like our busses have.

Ahh, got it. Well, if it's any additional consolation, the bike hooks tend to be in the area near the doors which is only really suited for standing and not particularly vulnerable to the addition of more seats. Having just observed bikes on the streetcar but never taking my own, it appears you just hook your bike and then sort of stand with it--and this somehow does not block the doors...

I saw the racks in Minneapolis. They looked well thought out.

[KCPowercat]

Anybody else find Yael whining about the crown center change as idiotic and just trying to stir up issues?

Why bend into crown center a half a block.... Wouldn't that cause more problems for South expansion. I have always found the MAX bend into crown center as foolish.... Why slow down the streetcar as well? I'm quite certain people can walk a block to main.

[smh]

Anybody else find Yael whining about the crown center change as idiotic and just trying to stir up issues?

Why bend into crown center a half a block.... Wouldn't that cause more problems for South expansion. I have always found the MAX bend into crown center as foolish.... Why slow down the streetcar as well? I'm quite certain people can walk a block to main.

He's killing me with his whining. I have been a fan of Yael in the past, but the more I follow him on Twitter and his blog the more I'm realizing that he is the guy in the back of the crowd who always has a pessimistic comment or question about everything even when it is perfectly obvious to everyone else in the room. You're totally correct that he is just trying to find controversy where none exists.

BTW, I'd much rather walk a block to Crown Center through the LINK than stop in the middle of Pershing in front of the Westin and negotiate that street full of tourists and cabs.

[flyingember]

Minneapolis Light Rail Thoughts. Rode this in May in a few segments

Rode from the mall to the airport and back as well as in downtown. Trip didn't work well to doing much more and spent most of the time in the country.

1. I liked how the stops were spread out for quick travel between locations. A future northward and southward streetcar KC expansion should be designed around this idea with fewer stops where possible. like NKC doesn't need one every two blocks, maybe one every 4 blocks. And north of 32nd to Vivion (48th) needs 3-4 stops top.
2. the vehicles were super nice. KC would be remiss to not go level boarding when it has the chance. This is the single biggest thing to push for more than any other.
3. the dedicated guideway downtown worked very well. This won't work in our downtown, but south of crown center is 6-7 lanes wide and this could be a good section for a dedicated Row on one side of the street with every other street right turn only + cars alongside.
4. the train there needed a downtown circular streetcar line connecting to light rail. They have a couple tourist areas 5-6 blocks away and even more big parking lots downtown than KC.
5. ran into someone from downtown who didn't speak much English going to the mall that I helped. for us being international tourist friendly might be worth looking into as a selling point. Even if it's just available brochures.
6. the mall stop was very busy. it was also a bus transfer stop too though. What it wasn't was a park and ride.
7. just before the game it was PACKED. it was fuller than standing room only.
8. I liked how the stops downtown were at ground level. I disliked the mall stop being below the parking garage. It would have been nicer if it were level with the first floor entrance for visibility.

Kid thoughts
1. level boarding meant I rolled a stroller right into the vehicle.
2. the seats weren't great. I was worried he would get out or fall out since it was hard to sit close to him and he leaned forward to see out the windows.
3. The seat rows were placed so close together our really small stroller wouldn't fit between the seats which meant it blocked the aisle unless we folded it up which isn't possible as it was loaded up with stuff. Poor stroller handling is a common transit theme I'm running into.

[flyingember]

Anybody else find Yael whining about the crown center change as idiotic and just trying to stir up issues?

Why bend into crown center a half a block.... Wouldn't that cause more problems for South expansion. I have always found the MAX bend into crown center as foolish.... Why slow down the streetcar as well? I'm quite certain people can walk a block to main.

I think it's a valid point but in a different way if the funding works out. Say we have the option of saving $2 million or spending it under current funding options.

Crown Center is a major employment center and is basically a second downtown to KC and really good connection to it would be smart.

go look at this aerial shot of Crown Center. http://binged.it/Qneaad there's three good spots for a path across Main St south of Pershing, two to the shopping center, one direct to Hallmark.

my idea is to get Crown Center to commit to extending the link to the upper Liberty Memorial grounds if the city commits to putting a stop at this bridge. what this does is give better parking access for the Liberty Memorial to help its attendance grow. It would also potentially give crown center streetcar parking money which would help them. business and transit and city synergy and all that

Then look at Minneapolis light rail. They don't have the turnaround at the end of the line, it's a block back. We could do similar if the money works out and extend only the southbound side few hundred more feet up Main. The vehicle would doubles back and switch to the nb side north of Pershing. Put in a basic on street stop that connects to a sidewalk up to the new bridge and upgrade it with the extension to the Plaza.

[Pork Chop]

Anybody else find Yael whining about the crown center change as idiotic and just trying to stir up issues?

Why bend into crown center a half a block.... Wouldn't that cause more problems for South expansion. I have always found the MAX bend into crown center as foolish.... Why slow down the streetcar as well? I'm quite certain people can walk a block to main.

He's not writing for downtown interests in my belief, but more for the majority of people in the metro that for some reason always has some angst with DTKCMO.

[flyingember]

Dangerboy.  The 5 minute headway thing is also important.  I saw the Jaime Lerner lecture and he emphasized that short headways are crucial for transit success.

Definently. Let's use Amtrak as an example.

Lack of regular service is Amtrak's problem.

Ridership has grown as on time has got better but you still see a lot of people choosing to drive to places the train serves because it doesn't have regular service.

I mocked up a weekend trip to St. Louis because it's doable via car and train.
To take the car I can leave whenever I want either direction.
Amtrak has two options there and three back (and one of the three is really strange).

So infinite flexibility vs two times and it's slower. It's no contest for most people.

If they offered more times I bet we'd see more people use it. Well, once there's a way to get into the towns along the line. The majority don't have transit serving the station. You need to walk to get a car or have a pickup planned for everywhere on it in MO except StL and KC.

I never got why there isn't a rental car service at every Amtrak station. Like some big nationwide partnership where the government gives a private company discounted/free rent for providing cars at every station on the train's schedule

[longviewmo]

A national network isn't run quite the same as a two mile long streetcar line.

[smh]

A national network isn't run quite the same as a two mile long streetcar line.

Say what?

[flyingember]

A national network isn't run quite the same as a two mile long streetcar line.

that thinking is part of the problem

there are 29 trains tomorrow from London to Edinburgh.
there's 26 on September 12, a wednesday

we have two.

sure, we're not to needing 26 yet, but 2 is sad in comparison.

[DaveKCMO]

back to the streetcar, please. it will have 10 minute headways.