Big 12 Basketball 2008

[TheBigChuckbowski]

Seems like someone is really, really sore about Wally Judge's one and done year in Manhattan looking more and more likely to just be an ignored and forgotten footnote behind a couple really, really good teams in KU and UT and a promissing OU.  Powercat, if the Cats finish 4-6 this year, with this much anticipated recruiting class, will the powercat faithful come to the realization that this is as far as Furious Frank will ever get you and send him packing? 

Yeah, he only finished 4th last year with half the talent he had the year before and half the talent he's going to have this year. Did you think the best Bill Self was ever going to do was finish in the Elite 8 after his 14 year career where he didn't get past it once? Oh, and you're basing this argument on 2 years and in 1 of those years, he got his team to overachieve.

Just so we're clear:

Frank Martin finished around where everyone predicts one year.

Then, he finishes way higher than everyone predicts the next year.

And, this is a coach you're convinced is going to fail and has already maxed out his potential?

Wow. Is this Maitre D?

[TheBigChuckbowski]

Well they're #1 for good reason.  You bring back 2 probably 1st team AA's in Collins and Aldrich, and add a top 5 recruit in Henry, and bring back a great supporting cast of experienced players...that's a recipe for a great team.

Is anyone arguing otherwise?

[WSPanic]

Of course they are not going to return the favor.  Do you see many Nebraska football fans out patting Mizzou on the back for dominating the North the past few seasons?  No.  All they do is talk about how "next year" they will be back on top and "order will be restored."  

Now lets look at the Kansas fans on this board.  They want to pretend that last year didn't even happen and move on to next year.  All they can talk about is Xavier Henry, preseason #1, and how it will not even be fair next year for a season that doesn't even start for nearly seven months!  The parallels are amazing...

Preseason polls in football are very meaningful. If you do not start out in the top 10 or 15 your chances at a National Title are virtually zero regardless of what you do on the field.  On the other hand, preseason polls in basketball are pretty much meaningless.  So much can happen during a college basketball season with all of the games and tournaments.  

But KU fans are the ones seeking validation? Sounds like it's a conference-wide problem. Maybe some Husker fans will stop by and pat you on the back and make you feel better.

And your rationalization of preseason polls is pretty piss-poor. In 2007/2008 KU and MU were both unranked preseason. By week eight they were ranked 12/13 respectively. Five weeks later they were ranked 2/3. So, explain to me again how on-field performance doesn't matter?

[jlbomega]

And your rationalization of preseason polls is pretty piss-poor. In 2007/2008 KU and MU were both unranked preseason. By week eight they were ranked 12/13 respectively. Five weeks later they were ranked 2/3. So, explain to me again how on-field performance doesn't matter?

1)  I never said on the field performance doesn't matter at all.  The differnece is preseason ranking, perception, and win/loss numbers can be more important than what actually occurs on a field.

2)  Also, in 2007/2008 a lower ranked KU team coming off a loss to Big 12 North Champion Missouri is selected to the BCS over Missouri.

3)  Why did a two loss LSU team get to play for the National Title over a two loss Missouri team?  LSU had lost to two unranked teams (one at home on the last game of the year) over a Missouri team that happened to lose twice to a top 5 team?  Answer:  They started the season ranked in the top 5. 

4)  Why did Ohio State make it to the National Championship game in 2007/08 when they lost at home to a weak Illinois team?  Answer:  They started the season ranked #1

5)  Why was Auburn left out of the 2004 NC game?  Answer:  They started the season ranked lower than the other undefeated teams. 

I could go on... but I think you have sufficiently been served.  Beaker football logic commits another epic failure.

[WSPanic]

1)  I never said on the field performance doesn't matter at all.

2)  Also, in 2007/2008 a lower ranked KU team coming off a loss to Big 12 North Champion Missouri is selected to the BCS over Missouri.

3)  Why did a two loss LSU team get to play for the National Title over a two loss Missouri team?  LSU had lost to two unranked teams (one at home on the last game of the year) over a Missouri team that happened to lose twice to a top 5 team?  Answer:  They started the season ranked in the top 5. 

4)  Why did Ohio State make it to the National Championship game in 2007/08 when they lost at home to a weak Illinois team?  Answer:  They started the season ranked #1

5)  Why was Auburn left out of the 2004 NC game?  Answer:  They started the season ranked lower than the other undefeated teams. 

I could go on... but I think you have sufficiently been served.  Beaker football logic commits another epic failure.

That's nice. But, you said - and I quote - "If you do not start out in the top 10 or 15 your chances at a National Title are virtually zero regardless of what you do on the field."

Where is the truth in that statement? Please tell me so I can consider myself "served" - or whatever internet douchebag term you want to toss out there in support of your "epically failed" arguments.

[jlbomega]

That's nice. But, you said - and I quote - "If you do not start out in the top 10 or 15 your chances at a National Title are virtually zero regardless of what you do on the field."

Where is the truth in that statement? Please tell me so I can consider myself "served" - or whatever internet douchebag term you want to toss out there in support of your "epically failed" arguments.

Did MU or KU play for the National Championship in 2007?  Has any team in the BCS era played for the National Championship (or won a NC) having started the season outside of the top 25? 

Who is the "d-bag" now?  You should have just dropped this... you look foolish.

[WSPanic]

Did MU or KU play for the National Championship in 2007?  Has any team in the BCS era played for the National Championship (or won a NC) having started the season outside of the top 25? 

Who is the "d-bag" now?  You should have just dropped this... you look foolish.

MU didn't play for the NC because they couldn't beat OU. KU didn't play because they couldn't beat MU. Last time I checked - those things happened on the field. To argue that they didn't have a chance is simply wrong. If they got to #2/#3 - they have only themselves to blame.

And the sad thing is - you know that and seem to just admit that was an incorrect statement. You really do bring down the level of debate on this board. Thanks for that.

[im2kull]

Wow. Is this Maitre D?

[jlbomega]

MU didn't play for the NC because they couldn't beat OU. KU didn't play because they couldn't beat MU. Last time I checked - those things happened on the field. To argue that they didn't have a chance is simply wrong. If they got to #2/#3 - they have only themselves to blame.

And the sad thing is - you know that and seem to just admit that was an incorrect statement. You really do bring down the level of debate on this board. Thanks for that.

Incorrect as usual.... you still cannot explain why OSU and LSU played in the NC in 2007.  LSU had two losses to unranked teams... definately there were teams with better resumes.  The answer (which you refuse to admit because it will prove the failure of your arguement) is because LSU was one of the top ranked teams going into the season.  Thus, when they lost they didn't fall as far as the other teams did in the polls. 

I wish I could say you actually brought something to the debate on this board (either for better or worse) but you obviously bring nothing at all.

[aknowledgeableperson]

LSU lost their games in '07 after 3 OT's.  Plus the team was the SEC league champion.  Neither KU nor MU could claim to be a league champion in '07.

[im2kull]

LSU lost their games in '07 after 3 OT's.  Plus the team was the SEC league champion.  Neither KU nor MU could claim to be a league champion in '07.

Neither could OU during their championship run in 04 or whenever that was.  Remember that Split National Championship debate.  Remember KSU beating OU?  I do, and I still remember OU making the game...showing how prior rankings effect rankings after a loss.

[aknowledgeableperson]

It was the '03 season.  OU finished 12-1 and K-State finished 11-3, before bowl games.  Only three BCS teams finished with one loss before the bowl season, LSU and USC the others.  So, no way was KSU going to the championship game with three losses.  LSU's loss was to unranked Florida.  USC's loss was to unranked Cal.  At least OU lost to a ranked team.

[Highlander]

This discussion has morphed into an entirely football discussion.  Perhaps it would be best if the last couple of pages could be moved back into the Big XII football thread.? 

[im2kull]

It was the '03 season.  OU finished 12-1 and K-State finished 11-3, before bowl games.  Only three BCS teams finished with one loss before the bowl season, LSU and USC the others.  So, no way was KSU going to the championship game with three losses.  LSU's loss was to unranked Florida.  USC's loss was to unranked Cal.  At least OU lost to a ranked team.

I wasn't arguing for KSU.  I was pointing out that the only reason 2 teams, out of three with the exact same records, went to a true title game was because of their rank...and how their pre-season rank kept them there.

[NDTeve]

JLB...OU did not start the season in the Top 20 in 2000 and won the National Championship. How do you explain that...and that was off the top of my head.

[im2kull]

Maybe because they went undefeated and are in a BCS conference, beating multiple ranked teams?  Perhaps?

[NDTeve]

Maybe because they went undefeated and are in a BCS conference, beating multiple ranked teams?  Perhaps?

But JLB said the chances of playing for a national championship if ranked outside the top 20 were zero regardless of what you do on the field. Which is it? Do you want to answer for him African-American2Kull?

[jlbomega]

But JLB said the chances of playing for a national championship if ranked outside the top 20 were zero regardless of what you do on the field. Which is it? Do you want to answer for him African-American2Kull?

It has become apparent to me that some people on this board refuse to read my posts.  They just see that I posted and try to flame back at me.  At no point did I say a team did not have a chance to win a National Title if they started the season outside of the top 25.  I said it was "virtually" zero meaning anyone who started the season ranked outside of the top 25 (or ranked toward the bottom of the top 25) would have no margin for error to make the NC.  They would have to win every game which is a fact.

JLB...OU did not start the season in the Top 20 in 2000 and won the National Championship. How do you explain that...and that was off the top of my head.

I don't recall where OU started in the polls in 2000, but as Im said they went undefeated and won the Big 12 Championship which will put you in the NC just about every year.  Of course it will not happen every year when Auburn was the undefeated champion of the SEC.  They were left out of the NC because they were ranked lower to start the season than the other two teams that finished undefeated.  This fact alone should prove just how much preseason rankings mean on college football... but aparently these factoids do not register with some people on here. 

[NDTeve]

It has become apparent to me that some people on this board refuse to read my posts.  They just see that I posted and try to flame back at me.  At no point did I say a team did not have a chance to win a National Title if they started the season outside of the top 25.  I said it was "virtually" zero meaning anyone who started the season ranked outside of the top 25 (or ranked toward the bottom of the top 25) would have no margin for error to make the NC.  They would have to win every game which is a fact.

Nice try.

[im2kull]

But JLB said the chances of playing for a national championship if ranked outside the top 20 were zero regardless of what you do on the field. Which is it? Do you want to answer for him African-American2Kull?

Utah? Boise St.? Utah?

Perhaps ranked outside the top 20 in the preseason, and outside a BCS conference is the correct answer.