KCMO Downtown Streetcar

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flyingember
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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby flyingember » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:16 am

dnweava wrote:start charging and I will never ride the streetcar again. Just being honest. I'm not paying for 1/2 mile ride that I can walk in 5 minutes. If it went to the plaza/airport/stadiums/etc then I would consider paying, but I would never pay for the current line.

Exaggerate much? Since you're clearly waiting at all crosswalks I would call that a 7 minute mile. this puts you easily in the top 5% of all runners. Since you're that in shape, why are you taking the train at all?

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby WoodDraw » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:24 am

flyingember wrote:
dnweava wrote:start charging and I will never ride the streetcar again. Just being honest. I'm not paying for 1/2 mile ride that I can walk in 5 minutes. If it went to the plaza/airport/stadiums/etc then I would consider paying, but I would never pay for the current line.

Exaggerate much? Since you're clearly waiting at all crosswalks I would call that a 7 minute mile. this puts you easily in the top 5% of all runners. Since you're that in shape, why are you taking the train at all?


I outwalk the streetcar on a fairly consistent basis. I've posted about it here multiple times.

It's also horribly unreliable. Have a train to catch? You can't depend on any consistency in timing of streetcars. Better to just start walking and maybe you'll time it right.

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby beautyfromashes » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:08 pm

^ Especially if wait times for the train are taken into effect. The streetcar would win on a long trip, but I guarantee you moving out the door from a restaurant DT going to the Crossroads, it's usually better to just start off walking than waiting.

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby flyingember » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:13 pm

Across an entire day I would bet your experience is in the minority. Next time carry 40 pounds (groceries) and see if you can do that

Just last Friday I hopped on at 3rd at around 3:30pm, got off at 14th, walked over to two blocks Grand to see the bike lanes, north one block to the P&L cut over where a band was setting up and took the ped path three over to Baltimore to see the P&L add on finished, then north one block to 13th, and then two blocks to the 12th St stop and hopped back on (9 blocks total). I paused for maybe 15 seconds a few times around there but I mostly kept moving.

The train meanwhile looped all the way to Pershing (23rd), waited there at it's layover and came back, hitting 6 stops on the way.

I waited less than a minute at the 12th St NB stop, could see the train at 14th when I got there. It was the same driver so I hopped back on the same train.

So my 9 blocks was the same as the train going 21 blocks with a long wait in the middle. I moved at half the speed of the train at a reasonable walking pace. Either that, or it did the full loop again and it looks even faster.
Last edited by flyingember on Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby KCPowercat » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:14 pm

Count your blessings. Not everybody is as lucky to have that good of walking ability.

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KCtoBrooklyn
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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby KCtoBrooklyn » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:05 pm

I just missed a streetcar today. Since I have heard people say they can out walk it, I did a little jog to see if i could catch up by the next stop. I wasn't even close.

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby Riverite » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:10 pm

I've had a two block head start from nineteenth and had to literally sprint to make it in time for the Kauffman
Stop. It's not that fast but it also isn't slow

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DaveKCMO
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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:22 pm

ldai_phs wrote:
tower wrote:
beautyfromashes wrote:The biggest response that I hear from my suburbanite friends when I talk about how popular the streetcar is, is “Just wait til they start charging for it! No one will ride!”. Please don’t make us urban supporters look stupid by charging. Just don’t even research it.


They don't even need to do a poll to know it's a horrible idea. Ridership has dropped up to 40% in other cities when they started charging, which reduces the development benefits as well. A streetcar fee isn't even worth considering.


I was very surprised that this was happening. The surveys were somewhat intrusive also, wanting to know household income, employment, number of cars driven, school location, etc. What does Dave have to say about this?


i didn't design the survey. you don't have to answer the questions. i took the survey twice -- once on streetcar, once on MAX -- and answered everything. that's all i have to say about it. ;-)

the streetcar authority sets fare policy and the current makeup doesn't support charging one. as the make-up of that board changes with system expansion, opinion could shift. i personally don't believe it will once everyone is made aware of the cost of collecting a fare (vs. the cost of providing the service) and the impact it would have on ridership (and, indirectly, economic activity).

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:30 pm

WoodDraw wrote:I outwalk the streetcar on a fairly consistent basis. I've posted about it here multiple times.

It's also horribly unreliable. Have a train to catch? You can't depend on any consistency in timing of streetcars. Better to just start walking and maybe you'll time it right.


yes, we know.

do you use transit elsewhere? what are you comparing it to? i've asked multiple times if you check the app. are you? you can actually check to see when it's both scheduled to arrive (google) and where the streetcar actually is (currently only the smart city app). science.

while 10-5 minute headways are great for KC, it's not going to be walk-out-and-grab-a-streetcar-right-as-it-pulls-up-every-time until we add a fourth car in regular service.

streetcar on-time performance is actually quite good (low 90%'s, amazing for mixed traffic... did you know that main street MAX dropped into the 40s? true story!). sorry you're having such a miserable experience that doesn't match what others are experiencing.

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby WoodDraw » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:34 pm

KCtoBrooklyn wrote:I just missed a streetcar today. Since I have heard people say they can out walk it, I did a little jog to see if i could catch up by the next stop. I wasn't even close.


That's part of the problem. I live right on the streetcar. Last time I tried to take it for a planned reason, I walked from the stop to Union station without a single car passing me. If I would have waited, I would have missed my train.

It's not a reliable form of transportation.

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby WoodDraw » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:38 pm

Tbf, they need more streetcars and they need higher signal priority. Some of this is on the city, and some of it is just figuring out the system. It sucks that it takes half a decade to order a new damn car.

And it's just too short. But we need to be honest with the shortcomings.

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby KCtoBrooklyn » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:39 pm

WoodDraw wrote:
KCtoBrooklyn wrote:I just missed a streetcar today. Since I have heard people say they can out walk it, I did a little jog to see if i could catch up by the next stop. I wasn't even close.


That's part of the problem. I live right on the streetcar. Last time I tried to take it for a planned reason, I walked from the stop to Union station without a single car passing me. If I would have waited, I would have missed my train.

It's not a reliable form of transportation.


Eh, wasnt really a problem for me. I wasn't keeping an eye on the schedule, so I don't know if the streetcar was running on time or not. I had to wait 11 minutes for the next car. Still made it to my destination on time and probably quicker than walking.

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:53 pm

WoodDraw wrote:
KCtoBrooklyn wrote:I just missed a streetcar today. Since I have heard people say they can out walk it, I did a little jog to see if i could catch up by the next stop. I wasn't even close.


That's part of the problem. I live right on the streetcar. Last time I tried to take it for a planned reason, I walked from the stop to Union station without a single car passing me. If I would have waited, I would have missed my train.

It's not a reliable form of transportation.


again, "reliable" is based on the schedule and the customer information you are provided at the station. did you consult either? what did the real-time arrival sign say?

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beautyfromashes
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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby beautyfromashes » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:18 pm

dnweava wrote:start charging and I will never ride the streetcar again.

While probably an exaggeration, this is the correct answer if asked to take the survey.

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby JBmidtown » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:21 pm

I'm a transit user. I take the Troost MAX to Metro Center and the streetcar takes me anywhere downtown from there. It usually means I'm not spending more than 40 minutes commuting to anywhere downtown from my house near 41st and Troost. I don't get all the complaints about streetcar reliability. It's a great line for local service.

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby WoodDraw » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:39 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:
WoodDraw wrote:
KCtoBrooklyn wrote:I just missed a streetcar today. Since I have heard people say they can out walk it, I did a little jog to see if i could catch up by the next stop. I wasn't even close.


That's part of the problem. I live right on the streetcar. Last time I tried to take it for a planned reason, I walked from the stop to Union station without a single car passing me. If I would have waited, I would have missed my train.

It's not a reliable form of transportation.


again, "reliable" is based on the schedule and the customer information you are provided at the station. did you consult either? what did the real-time arrival sign say?


Sure. The station said the next streetcar was something like 20 minutes away and the next one after that was like 25 minutes away.

I don't know why streetcar advocates fight this so much. Unless you nail the timing, it's almost always quicker to walk unless you're doing end to end. And when you are, it needs to reliably show up.

No one complains when I say the DC metro is shit and unreliable. But the difference is I can't just go outwalk it so it still serves a purpose.

I can't tell you the amount of times I've seen a streetcar arrive just to sit at a red light. How in the world do we not have signal priority yet?

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby flyingember » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:59 pm

We don't want signal priority, we want OGL enabled downtown so the whole area can be managed as one

We need to speed up leaving Main and slow down turning onto it.

Who cares if it gets a green light at 7th if it has to wait at 14th because the cars turning left onto Truman back up into the through lane because the lights aren't being triggered at Walnut, Grand, Oak quick enough

This is the city market problem. The system needs to not turn a light green at 6th and Walnut/Grand or Indep and Wyandotte heading into the market if there's a crazy long backup on 5th. It needs to dynamically control the light cycles on the circle to clear traffic out and delay the train just a touch until it can flow through better. Adding 10 seconds per stop feels a lot better than adding 5 minutes stuck in traffic.

This must be coordinated with controlling lot ingress and egress. If this means putting lot gates that block exits if the train is close that could help.
Last edited by flyingember on Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby Riverite » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:03 pm

So.... what you're saying is this smart city thing could be beneficial after all. /s

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby flyingember » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:06 pm

Riverite wrote:So.... what you're saying is this smart city thing could be beneficial after all. /s

Not sarcastically, yes, if we think big enough.

One street of changes won't help as we've seen. We need traffic control on 200+ blocks downtown all at once.

This isn't hard to picture. Take a map of downtown, take 200 tiny cars, 30 busses and three trains. Come up with 233 different paths, 233 different sources and 233 destinations and try to move them around the map, all crossing Main, and not block the train when you can't control how cars move on anything except Main.

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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Postby WoodDraw » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:38 pm

flyingember wrote:We don't want signal priority, we want OGL enabled downtown so the whole area can be managed as one

We need to speed up leaving Main and slow down turning onto it.

Who cares if it gets a green light at 7th if it has to wait at 14th because the cars turning left onto Truman back up into the through lane because the lights aren't being triggered at Walnut, Grand, Oak quick enough

This is the city market problem. The system needs to not turn a light green at 6th and Walnut/Grand or Indep and Wyandotte heading into the market if there's a crazy long backup on 5th. It needs to dynamically control the light cycles on the circle to clear traffic out and delay the train just a touch until it can flow through better. Adding 10 seconds per stop feels a lot better than adding 5 minutes stuck in traffic.

This must be coordinated with controlling lot ingress and egress. If this means putting lot gates that block exits if the train is close that could help.


This was far more intelligent than what I wrote.

I complain out of love. I just don't want to get to the point where we stop fighting for things to get better. Tons of respect to people like Dave though who work this everyday to make it better.


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