KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[trailerkid]

If MAX was moved to a straight north/south alignment on Grand, there would be plenty of opportunities for east/west connectivity.  i.e. the convention and library districts, the government district, the proposed East Village, and further afield the Westside and 18th & Vine.

For example, a conventioneer at Bartle could take the trolley east to Grand and then transfer to MAX and get to Westport or the Plaza.

OK...I get it and it sounds like the next step for KCATA. Eventually, I'd like to see trolley lines running from Pendleton Heights, Old NE, and Columbus Park to the River Market. Many of the neighborhoods around and within downtown seem so sleepy and unkept. Reconnecting these historic neighborhoods with "sexy" transit options will make them more attractive to outside development and rehabiliation.

[moderne]

From the August RTA newsletter:
    The route has not been defined but in principal the system would act as one element of a circular system for the downtown area, compliments the MAX BRT system.  It would intersect MAX at two points, possibly three.  Typical of a streetcar system, stops would be less frequent than buses, more frequent than BRT.  By providing an East-West connector to MAX it will enhance the MAX system.
    No determination has been made on the type of system.  Both steel wheeled and rubber tired systems are being reviewed.

[shinatoo]

Hopefully this will make MAX a little less frequent. More so by straightening out the route.

[KCPowercat]

yes, straighten out the MAX if this streetcar happens. 

I'd personally like to see it with 2 route...one shorter one around the downtown loop, and a longer one that goes to river market and south to the crossroads.  Maybe something like this...obviously following the street grid, just did this quickly.

blue - new max route

I disagree that this should keep the max from running as frequently though....it should run more frequent IMO.

[skim82]

will this streetcar initiative reach the RM?

[GRID]

I hear they want to fund it with a downtown transportation tax.  Does anybody know if and how many of these are already in place in Downtown such as Crown Center or the Cordish project?

[schugg]

here is a cool old pic I found (if no one has before) Its a streetcar on troost I believe in 1952.

[DaveKCMO]

here is a cool old pic I found (if no one has before) Its a streetcar on troost I believe in 1952.

the KC Star also published a book about the streetcar system that is incredibly fascinating and has tons of pictures like this. i got my copy at the union station store, but i'm sure it's available other places.

hold the phone: even amazon.com has it!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097227 ... 23?ie=UTF8

[bbqboy]

yes, straighten out the MAX if this streetcar happens. 

I'd personally like to see it with 2 route...one shorter one around the downtown loop, and a longer one that goes to river market and south to the crossroads.  Maybe something like this...obviously following the street grid, just did this quickly.

blue - new max route

I disagree that this should keep the max from running as frequently though....it should run more frequent IMO.

It needs to connect RM to US & CC.

[bahua]

Yes, like every other freaking bus route.

[staubio]

Yes, like every other freaking bus route.

Just MAX, 57 and 173.  They'll need to be explained a bit better if we want to make them as friendly as a circling trolley. 

[bahua]

Yes, I realize that not *every* route goes to these places, and we've had this discussion before. I was just venting about the fascination the people in this city have with making routes out of destinations, and not with providing service to an area.

[staubio]

Yes, I realize that not *every* route goes to these places, and we've had this discussion before. I was just venting about the fascination the people in this city have with making routes out of destinations, and not with providing service to an area.

I agree.  I think a streetcar is supposed to make routes out of destinations in this sense, though.  They should let the streetcar go everywhere and weave around and straighten the bus routes.

[bahua]

I agree.  I think a streetcar is supposed to make routes out of destinations in this sense, though.  They should let the streetcar go everywhere and weave around and straighten the bus routes.

That sounds good to me.

[advocrat]

A few weeks ago there was a discussion question about where would you have a light rail system run. There were a lot of interesting ideas shared.

This discussion has similarity to that earlier one and I'm always interested in this and feeling creative this morning.

I am not holding out for only one type of system, whether it be Light Rail, BRT, Streetcars, or the MAX which I understand is working very well. All initiatives cost money and some more than others. Kansas City voters are predictably and consistently stingy when it comes to footing the bill for such things. 

I think the greatest improvement to downtown transit could evolve from a decision to make the transit right-of-way (for the MAX for example) exclusive for the MAX only-I mean a lane that is segregated (with a raised curb to keep interloping traffic out) for MAX's exclusive use-no car or other traffic except for emergency vehicles or during an emergency. Along with this MAX should retain the ability to trip all the traffic lights along its route as they do now. 

Some may argue that it isn't realistic to eliminate auto traffic from an entire street or lane, but I'll bet that traffic would adjust to such a change.  More MAX buses would encourage the use of the MAX over driving your car into this area. Rather than drive and park in some Allright auto lot, it would better serve interests to have a few strategic and major (hub) parking facilities* that MAX is coming into every two minutes, including MAX buses that are traveling on routes that are outside of the downtown core.

I have a gut feeling that this would be a very inexpensive way to improve bus transit efficiency and speed and I would support this in a New York nano-second. The North-South streets for the downtown core would be Wyandotte, Walnut and Oak.


*facilities at - Wheeler Airport (Northtown commuters)
                    Massive open space just west of Cambridge Circle (Southwest JOCO commuters)
                    A parking area near Tension Envelope (Watkins Freeway commuters)
                    Near Berkley Riverfront Park (I-35 North Commuters)
                    At current bus (raze it and move to Union Station) terminal  (for I-70 commuters)
                    West Bottoms at Gennesee (for I-670 commuters)

[shinatoo]

I don't have a problem with your idea so much as the locations you chose. They are all close to downtown. Why would I drive all the way to 18th and prospect from Blue Springs (40 minutes) then park my car and wait for a bus to take me to my destination (15 minutes) when I could just drive on over in 5 minutes. The congestion problem in KC isn't on the grid like the mega cities, it's on the freeways.

[DaveKCMO]

I don't have a problem with your idea so much as the locations you chose. They are all close to downtown. Why would I drive all the way to 18th and prospect from Blue Springs (40 minutes) then park my car and wait for a bus to take me to my destination (15 minutes) when I could just drive on over in 5 minutes. The congestion problem in KC isn't on the grid like the mega cities, it's on the freeways.

very good point. a better system would be the "freeway fliers" or commuter rail, then offer flexcar/zipcar in the core; that would apply to the southbound 29/35 and westbound 70 commuters (all would benefit, however).

i do agree that all bus services should be consolidated at union station (greyhound, jefferson, el conejo). i live down the street from the el conejo terminal on sw blvd and it is always hopping. do a google search and see how big this operation is now.

[advocrat]

I don't have a problem with your idea so much as the locations you chose. They are all close to downtown. Why would I drive all the way to 18th and prospect from Blue Springs (40 minutes) then park my car and wait for a bus to take me to my destination (15 minutes) when I could just drive on over in 5 minutes. The congestion problem in KC isn't on the grid like the mega cities, it's on the freeways.

Well, you've addressed something that is also very important to me. I've posted messages all over the transportation topic advocating commuter rail, with initial plans, expansion and extension ideas. etc. I would really like to see the metro area progress along the lines of other cities (like Albuquerque which just started commuter rail operations three weeks ago on July 14th-it's called Railrunner.com). Railruner is cool and Utah has a similar system, as do a number of other cities.

But the idea for downtown transit improvement is my latest notion; an alternative to fixed rail systems (I actaully prefer fixed rail) because our voters seem adamant about killing all such proposals at the polls (I gotta digress a bit; I think that many voters really hate the idea of light-rail more than they hate Clay Chastain-he's just a conenient excuse for a "not while I'm alive "no" vote).  So that is why my idea-de-jour focused on the downtown core.

[OpenRoad]

Shinatoo, I think you raised the most appropriate point of this entire discussion.  KC's problem isn't on the surface streets, it's on the highways.  I think a trolley would be great for tourists / people getting around for good times on the weekend, but it wouldn't be realistic to assume that people would drive from JoCo, dump the car 5 minutes away from work DT and then ride the last mile.  I suppose if you could get a number of DT companies on board, and have them raze their garages, or actually build something on the surface lots such that it was prohibitively difficult or expensive to park downtown, you may get some traction.  But, since that would likely act as a disincentive to new companies moving DT (parking far away or some other nonsense complaint), I find that unlikely.  Eventually I could see a downtown trolley being useful for the people living downtown (I am one of them), but as my walk around this morning showed me... I don't think we're there yet.  People just aren't willing to dump their cars.... not that I blame them... I'm lazy too.

Also, with regard to gas prices, it'd have to be WAY above $4 for anyone to care.  Remember when $3 sounded outrageous?  I don't even flinch anymore when I drop $50 to fill up.  People have an amazing ability to adapt when it comes to paying for a car.  If you've already dropped 20,000 to buy one... what's another few bucks in gas?  The "elasticity of demand" is solid.  People will just keep buying.  I think if we saw a real spike... say to $8 a gallon, you'd see people biking down I-35 and suddenly the idea of commuter rail would be everyones wet dream.  Luckily, the 60% of oil we purchase abroad has kept pumping... for now.

[shinatoo]

JoCo-ites won't even use the Primary streets in JOCO.

Typical day: I-35 is backed up from Olathe to Downtown. 435 is a parking lot from Metcalf to 35. At 5pm get on Lamar at 35 and drive south to the Sprint Campus (in about 15 minutes) and count how many cars you see south of SMPW. Bet it won't be above 20. Same with Nall, Roe, Antioch and Neihman.

Then do the same on Holmes, Troost, WardPW, and Wornal. Tell me if you notice a difference. It's a strong commentary on the mentality of the typical JoCo-ite.

Yet they bitch and moan that 35 need to be expanded. Loony!