KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[DaveKCMO]

I wonder what the odds are that KC will begin operations before DC Streetcar does?

slim to none. they have all of their vehicles. i'd put money on DC starting before the end of the year, now that tim borchers is on board.

[KCPowercat]

Manufacturer delays aren't anything anybody in KC can control but why not go public with the information that trains were already late and Davis knew they were falling further behind vs. last week when he said he didn't put anything into what the paper said last week? Just not a good PR move.

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... issue.html

[normalthings]

In the future will the original KC Streetcars be able to be refurbished and used on the new line?

[flyingember]

They're basically gone. Then were sold off or destroyed decades ago. And the systems that bought them pretty much retired them since then. The ones that may remain sit outside unmaintained for decades at various museums.

The one outside Union Station can't be used. It's not bidirectional.

[FangKC]

There are companies that restore old streetcar stock and update it for modern use--including adding air conditioning and making them ADA compliant. There are also replica streetcars based on historic designs.

Restoration of old streetcars.

http://www.brookvillecorp.com/streetcar-restoration.asp

http://www.historicrailway.com/

http://www.heritagetrolley.org/images/PCCBrochure.pdf

Replica streetcars

http://www.brookvillecorp.com/streetcar-replica.asp

There are old streetcars parked around in the country just waiting to be restored. It's just a matter of finding the funding to do the restorations, and usually a private organization is needed to fund this, and operate the historic streetcars.

Depending on the infrastructure of streetcar lines, historic streetcars can operate in addition to other modes of mass transit, but there has to be planning done ahead of time to do that. One option is to run a specific line using just historic streetcar stock. If Kansas City has a successful roll-out, and additional routes are added in expansions, there could possibly be a specific line that just uses restored streetcars. It might have to be privately funded though, as has been done in other cities. Possibly, one could run a short line along 18th Street from the Jazz District to the Crossroads.

[Eon Blue]

I rode a vintage trolley in Dallas on their McKinney street line. It was fine for a fun, nostalgic ride but it wouldn't be as fun for daily commuting.

[moderne]

They could buy some of the cars from San Francisco. Some of the old KC Streetcars are still operational there.

[taxi]

Olde timey frou frou.

[DaveKCMO]

Manufacturer delays aren't anything anybody in KC can control but why not go public with the information that trains were already late and Davis knew they were falling further behind vs. last week when he said he didn't put anything into what the paper said last week? Just not a good PR move.

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... issue.html

because it didn't affect the start of operations until now.

[pash]

.

[flyingember]

So CAF might be six months behind schedule? Yikes.

Six months is nothing for them. They were 8 months behind for Houston. Got a train in January 2015 that was supposed to come in April 2014

I can't find the piece again but an article out of Houston said they opened a whole new factory so they didn't fall further behind on Houston. Guessing that's where KC's trains are being made.

Theirs is an order of 39 Urbos 3 trains in a different variant from what KC is getting. I hope to ride one in a month.

So they should have their act together after the last delay and yet it's still happening. Not a good sign.

[KCPowercat]

Manufacturer delays aren't anything anybody in KC can control but why not go public with the information that trains were already late and Davis knew they were falling further behind vs. last week when he said he didn't put anything into what the paper said last week? Just not a good PR move.

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... issue.html

because it didn't affect the start of operations until now.

Help me understand the timeline here as it's not making sense based on the media stories

From story yesterday:

Davis, a streetcar project manager, did not mention any issues with CAF when he spoke to the board of the Kansas City Streetcar Authority Inc. on July 30.

Yet he visited CAF on 7/17 and knew there were delays...why not at least update the board? Then he acts like "ehh, nothing to see here" with his "don't put any stock in that" comment.

August 4th Davis says (http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... delay.html)

"City Engineer Ralph Davis, a project manager for Kansas City's streetcar, said he has seen the report and will need to speak with Cincinnati and CAF before he can comment further.
"All I know is what the paper said, so I don't put any stock in that," Davis said."

then yesterday (http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... issue.html)

"But on July 17, CAF came back with news of additional delays, Hernandez said. City Engineer Ralph Davis visited a CAF facility in Elmira, N.Y., the week of July 20 for face-to-face conversations with company representatives."

So was the July 17th status just saying it was going to be September? Between 8/4 and 8/11 did Davis get more information from CAF about further delays? That's the part that's not detailed/clear and are confusing people (well at least me).

Just seems Davis could have been as transparent to the public/media/board as possible as there was writing on the wall that cars were delayed....now it kind of looks like he was hiding information which isn't a good look.

[DaveKCMO]

you don't just blab to the media every time a supplier misses a deadline, especially if they haven't confirmed a miss or given you a revised schedule. you do want them to deliver eventually (since you can't just go pick different cars and slap them on the tracks), so it's best not to drag their name through the mud unless it's completely necessary.

this is the exact reason an opening date has not been communicated. vehicle delivery has always been the #1 schedule risk after the legal challenges. there's no reason to communicate an exact date until we have three of the four vehicles on the ground because that date would be a complete fantasy.

the streetcar authority board (the meetings you reference) is generally not privy to all of the capital decisions and intricacies -- that is the city's responsibility as the owner/builder of the system. we set operational policy and our staff will oversee operations once the project is complete.

the good news is that ALL streetcar vehicles have been delayed in recent years, so this is not unique to CAF or kansas city. too many orders, not enough capacity to meet buy america requirements.

[KCPowercat]

Appreciate the explanation and insight...helps out us outsiders who just are salivating for this thing (as I know you are too!)

Many have been throwing out "Big 12 tournament" as their desired opening date, right?

[flyingember]

Appreciate the explanation and insight...helps out us outsiders who just are salivating for this thing (as I know you are too!)

Many have been throwing out "Big 12 tournament" as their desired opening date, right?

Not a good starting event in my opinion.

With people going equally both directions it would take three round trips to move 1800 people. The attendance last year was 19,000 per game.

I've seen the train in two cities before a baseball game and they're packed with no space. It's the time where you wait.

sudden demand events like a game ending is bad for transit. It's induced demand. if transit is easier or cheaper to use it will get used with a sudden crunch which means not everyone who wants to will be able to because of congestion. Then add all the car traffic in slowing it down.

its the perfect storm that could make people not try the train again, because it was too hard the first time.

Better to have it open for more everyday uses first and get good word of mouth. Like someone stuck in traffic looking for parking at the city market seeing people hopping out of the train.

[DaveKCMO]

Many have been throwing out "Big 12 tournament" as their desired opening date, right?

that date was only possible if vehicles were delivered on time. since they never are, ergo...

[flyingember]

Many have been throwing out "Big 12 tournament" as their desired opening date, right?

that date was only possible if vehicles were delivered on time. since they never are, ergo...

I would have to dig to find it again, but one article I saw said Houston actually put a high risk for delays as a negative for CAF. Their earlier trains are from Siemens (off the top of my head) which have been on time or early
They went with CAF because the cost was so much higher for the other options. Something like $30 million more for 39 trains, not insignificant but a clear benefit to either choice.

Delays being something other cities knew, it should have come up way earlier, like in 2014, and not two months before expected delivery. It's not the delay that's the problem, it's that it should have been discussed last year.

[flyingember]

Stop 1: 16th S, done
Stop 2: 16th N, concrete work done
Stop 3: 19th N, concrete work done
Stop 4: 5th/Walnut: done
Stop 5: Delaware: concrete for platform in, vertical is next
Stop 6: 7th N, reinforcement metal and forms going in

Remaining
3rd/Grand
7th S
9th N
9th S
12th N
12th S
14th N
14th S
19th S
Union Station

September will have to be a crazy busy month to finish everything in 6.5 weeks to make the end of the month. There's the whole street repaving for over half the line, 60% of the stops to do anything for, a lot of wire work (I'll call it half left to even string), a lot of street signal work, a huge number of corner repairs, the entire island to install at Union Station and the electrical utility boxes along the line.

At this point construction will either need to bring out a LOT more workers and equipment or expect it to go into October at least.

That all said, the official groundbreaking was only 15 months ago. The amount of work done that quickly has been impressive.

[DaveKCMO]

the siemens s70 "streetcar" (like the CAF urbos 3, a shortened light rail/tram vehicle) was considered, but the city and streetcar authority chose the CAF primarily because of it's 100% low floor interior (the siemens being 70% low floor). i don't regret the selection, even with the delay.

[flyingember]

I find is interesting Siemens doesn't offer both choices like CAF does. Could be an opportunity for them. Houston runs 70% trains from both companies.

This is the CAF website

In 2011, CAF signed a contract to supply, and subsequently maintain, 39 streetcars for the city of Houston. This is an Urbos 70% low floor, two way streetcar made up of 3 modules.