KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[pash]

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[WoodDraw]

And once we get the new cars, that will be as fast as I want it to be, at least until the second phase is implemented.

the city will have to make significant changes to on-street parking, garage access, and city market/P&L traffic flow to enable consistent four-car operations once the two additional cars arrive. thankfully, they have two years to figure that all out.

Two years to...build a new garage right on the busiest part. Forgive me for not holding my breath.

[beautyfromashes]

I understand the discussion about speeding up the streetcar to make it much quicker as a daily form of transportation. But, I think comparing it to walking or automobile speed is a bad comparison. In a few years, both of those transportation forms will slow way down. With density it will be near impossible to find a parking space and increased congestion will make it difficult to sprint down Main St like you can now. Nothing will increase daily streetcar use more than constantly having to circle the block looking for a parking space or getting stuck behind a large group of tourists on the sidewalk.

[KCPowercat]

It seems the streetcar is being held to headway stardards only dreamed of by even max users. I consistently just head to the streetcar stop when I'm going to ride and yes if I'm not going 4+ stops sometimes I walk it like I did before the streetcar...I would never consider doing that with the max much less any other bus line. I always plan out my leaving and walk to meet a bus...and almost always still wait longer than I should.

The downtown line has always been called a starter line. There were no grand plans that the 2 mile line was going to be the great savior of transit to jobs. To rewrite history now is unfair.

[scooterj]

the layovers are union station are planned. yes, they should be shorter. that's not what contributes to waits elsewhere. with the layovers, headways are scheduled at 10-12 minutes all day long with three vehicles.

So when you get on the streetcar at Union Station and it is completely full to the point where there is almost no room to even stand, and then it sits there not moving for another 10+ minutes, and people wonder aloud whether they should get off and walk, that is planned?

It almost seems to be the rule more than the exception that if I miss a streetcar and start walking, I will see at least two pass me in the opposite direction I'm walking before one ever comes along the direction I'm walking. Typically I'll walk more than half the length of the route before the next one comes along. (Why can't I ever be lucky enough to be heading in the same direction as the back-to-back streetcars? ) Once I made it all the way from 4th & Delaware to 20th St before one came along in my direction and by then what was the point?'

Don't get me wrong, I love love love the streetcar when I am able to catch one. But something is going wrong that keeps bunching them up together on one side and leaving long gaps on the other side. And as often as I see one arriving at Union Station right as one is leaving there, those "layovers" have got to be a big part of the problem. They might be serving some magical behind-the-scenes theoretical purpose, but they hurt perceptions of the streetcar for those who sit there not moving for so long that they realize they could have walked to their destination faster.

[flyingember]

You can't compare it to walking because people walk at different paces and the situation varies. If you're fit and unencumbered with bags, ignore the crosswalk signals and it's very busy downtown you absolutely can beat the streetcar.

I one time could see the train at 7th St waiting on a light coming towards me. I was at 11th at the top of the hill. I barely made it to 12th before the train got there. It managed to clear 5 blocks to my one.

There was no traffic at all and the train can clear a block in 2-4 seconds. If I was older and slower I wouldn't have made it.

[flyingember]

Don't get me wrong, I love love love the streetcar when I am able to catch one. But something is going wrong that keeps bunching them up together on one side and leaving long gaps on the other side. And as often as I see one arriving at Union Station right as one is leaving there, those "layovers" have got to be a big part of the problem. They might be serving some magical behind-the-scenes theoretical purpose, but they hurt perceptions of the streetcar for those who sit there not moving for so long that they realize they could have walked to their destination faster.

The layovers are to control spacing. They can hold/release trains based on the movement of the train in front and behind.

With two trains you'll see one train leave US about the time the other one is at 3rd/Grand. With three, the best spacing is to have NB at about 8th and SB at about 14th when it leaves.

[earthling]

I've been riding it a lot lately both weekdays and weekends and not seeing bunching up that often. It happens but not often, maybe Sat afternoons given River Market traffic jams or maybe arena event jams. Overall a 12 min avg wait isn't bad but it would be nice to see faster runs by improving signal priority, which would ultimately mean a bit shorter wait times as well.

And there are other options if streetcars too packed... bike rental and bus. Free day bus pass when installing Ride KC smartphone app - just try it.

[KCPowercat]

the layovers are union station are planned. yes, they should be shorter. that's not what contributes to waits elsewhere. with the layovers, headways are scheduled at 10-12 minutes all day long with three vehicles.

So when you get on the streetcar at Union Station and it is completely full to the point where there is almost no room to even stand, and then it sits there not moving for another 10+ minutes, and people wonder aloud whether they should get off and walk, that is planned?

It almost seems to be the rule more than the exception that if I miss a streetcar and start walking, I will see at least two pass me in the opposite direction I'm walking before one ever comes along the direction I'm walking. Typically I'll walk more than half the length of the route before the next one comes along. (Why can't I ever be lucky enough to be heading in the same direction as the back-to-back streetcars? ) Once I made it all the way from 4th & Delaware to 20th St before one came along in my direction and by then what was the point?'

Don't get me wrong, I love love love the streetcar when I am able to catch one. But something is going wrong that keeps bunching them up together on one side and leaving long gaps on the other side. And as often as I see one arriving at Union Station right as one is leaving there, those "layovers" have got to be a big part of the problem. They might be serving some magical behind-the-scenes theoretical purpose, but they hurt perceptions of the streetcar for those who sit there not moving for so long that they realize they could have walked to their destination faster.

Without the layovers you'd have a huge bunching problem. The amount of people in the car shouldn't change the schedule.

[JBmidtown]

It's not light rail and it never will be and that's ok. It's a local commuting option still in its infancy. Signal priority will get better, headways will be improved with more cars and if the city can pull its head out of its ass about avoiding putting parking garages along the route and limiting the amount of traffic Main, the streetcar can come pretty damn close to emulating light rail while costing a fraction of the cost. That's pretty good.

Just give it some time to improve. It's been up for a little over a year and it's not like we have a lot of modern, American streetcar systems to work off of as a guide. We're writing our book from scratch.

[flyingember]

It's not light rail and it never will be and that's ok.

why can't it be more of a light rail system in terms of stop spacing and speed? Houston is the best example of mixed styles in play.

they bought the same trains for their expansion order as we did and run them coupled so it's not the trains that define the difference
their downtown segment is almost the same average distance between stops as our starter line. (divide distance by number of stops). They have two lines which put single vehicle light rail trains (the same as ours) in shared lane traffic and call it light rail. It's not what it looks like downtown.

The major difference is the dedicated lane and movement control such as blocking crossing the tracks except at major streets. The train almost always crosses a major street before the light turns red, it's timed that well and it rarely hits a red light. The less crossings the easier it is to time things.

[JBmidtown]

That's pretty much what I was implying would/should be the next few steps.

[smh]

FWIW, I live right off the line and use the streetcar frequently. I haven't really experienced any of the concerns discussed here other than waits on Saturdays due to backups in River Market (and I hold out hope that with some effort the city will come to its senses on the new garage). Occasionally I have noticed a light change right before streetcar arrives which delays it, but otherwise I've found it to be quite the opposite of slow. It has greatly increased my range as a pedestrian. I now am comfortable walking to Union Hill because my walk doesn't begin until Union Station whereas before it would begin in the Loop. Anyway, let's eliminate the garage idea is what I'm saying.

[pash]

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[DaveKCMO]

i've explained the layovers at union station. you'll get shorter wait times during heavy passenger loads when more streetcars arrive. that's literally why we ordered them. if you don't accept that because you think we're not trying hard enough, please move along.

as for other issues that could improve reliability (not necessarily reduce layovers or shorten average run times):

1) full traffic signal pre-emption from union station to river market (versus level "2" priority today, which is better than MAX).
2) close or relocate the 14th street valet for P&L.
3) convert more on-street parking to motorcycle or bike parking (like the spaces just converted on 5th), eliminate spots too close to intersections.
4) don't build any more car trip generators with access facing the alignment (5th & main and 2nd & grand garages, for example).
5) close the main street entrance for the cosentino's garage and convert to another retail stall.
6) add a right turn pocket southbound main at 18th (current it's all parking).
7) install permanent delineators along 5th street and close 5th street access to surface lots.
open walnut and main street in the river market to two-way traffic between 3rd and 5th.
9) convert main south of 5th and missouri between main and walnut to two-way traffic.
10) close main between petticoat and 14th to cars/taxis/ubers on weekends (requires #2 and #4 and vigilance on keeping walnut/baltimore free and clear).

[pash]

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[JBmidtown]

1) full traffic signal pre-emption from union station to river market (versus level "2" priority today, which is better than MAX).
2) close or relocate the 14th street valet for P&L.
3) convert more on-street parking to motorcycle or bike parking (like the spaces just converted on 5th), eliminate spots too close to intersections.
4) don't build any more car trip generators with access facing the alignment (5th & main and 2nd & grand garages, for example).
5) close the main street entrance for the cosentino's garage and convert to another retail stall.
6) add a right turn pocket southbound main at 18th (current it's all parking).
7) install permanent delineators along 5th street and close 5th street access to surface lots.
open walnut and main street in the river market to two-way traffic between 3rd and 5th.
9) convert main south of 5th and missouri between main and walnut to two-way traffic.
10) close main between petticoat and 14th to cars/taxis/ubers on weekends (requires #2 and #4 and vigilance on keeping walnut/baltimore free and clear).

I really hope you and the streetcar authority are making all of this abundantly clear to the city council and holding their hand the whole time. I don't think they are capable of understanding all of this without slowly and carefully explaining each detail to them.

[flyingember]

Why can't the layovers be shortened when there is a big gap between the streetcar starting the layover and the one in front of it?

it's not based on gap size, it's based on travel time between points.

Imagine it's Saturday and let's say it takes 6 minutes to get from US to the city market, 7 minutes to get around it and 6 minutes back because of tons of people at the city market

Train 1 should just be leaving US NB as train 2 arrives at 7th/Main NB and train 3 is crossing Indep Ave SB.
there's a huge physical gap on most of the line but the spacing is perfect to minimize wait for all stops

The perception that there's a huge gap is correct, because a minority of the line is taking a majority of the travel time. The math adds up to being the right way to do things even though it looks wrong on the ground. Doing it any other way risks the trains bunching up.

[pash]

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[mean]

Although to be fair, "gap" often does imply a physical one, so I don't really think the misunderstanding is obnoxiously unjustified. Just slightly hilarious.