KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[DaveKCMO]

Southbound stations seem to have realtime and accurate....northbound? Nothing but a clock.

Report to @kcstreetcar.

[kboish]

Yesterday I rode the streetcar from MetroCenter to the River Market. We hit every green light and wow, what a difference that makes. A very smooth and quick ride. I wish that were the case every time.

I also still shake my head at the library stop and north loop stop. I can't believe those weren't consolidated into one stop between the two. Talk about over kill.

[scooterj]

I also still shake my head at the library stop and north loop stop. I can't believe those weren't consolidated into one stop between the two. Talk about over kill.

I hope when it extends south that they reduce the number of stops in Midtown from what the MAX currently has. For instance, combine 31st Street and Linwood into a single stop in-between the two.

[DaveKCMO]

I also still shake my head at the library stop and north loop stop. I can't believe those weren't consolidated into one stop between the two. Talk about over kill.

I hope when it extends south that they reduce the number of stops in Midtown from what the MAX currently has. For instance, combine 31st Street and Linwood into a single stop in-between the two.

Good luck convincing midtown of that strategy.

[beautyfromashes]

Good luck convincing midtown of that strategy.

So, the talking points is that Midtown has to pay because we get the benefit but then you want the residents to have to walk longer distances to get to spread out stops? And just so a DT apartment dweller can get to the Plaza 1 minute quicker?

[chingon]

Good luck convincing midtown of that strategy.

So, the talking points is that Midtown has to pay because we get the benefit but then you want the residents to have to walk longer distances to get to spread out stops? And just so a DT apartment dweller can get to the Plaza 1 minute quicker?

Got it, you are against expansion. Pretty sure everyone would get to the Plaza quicker, though, without multiple stops within 2 blocks. I'm a MAX rider and that double stop sucks, as does the Crown Center/Union Station stop, and the entire local service run south of 47th.

Excessive bus stops are bad for riders, bad for the system, and wasteful of our very limited transit resources.

[flyingember]

Good luck convincing midtown of that strategy.

So, the talking points is that Midtown has to pay because we get the benefit but then you want the residents to have to walk longer distances to get to spread out stops? And just so a DT apartment dweller can get to the Plaza 1 minute quicker?

The total time spent comes at the expense of a little walking, yes, but it can be a very small change and get a big impact in total trip speed.

Let's put this in real world terms. Say the stops are every three blocks instead of every two.

If you get on at 52nd that's 27 blocks to Union Station. So that's 9 stops vs 13 each way
A train stopping and letting people on and off can take 60 seconds. And because it didn't stop it's less likely to get stopped at a traffic light, that's another 60 seconds per light. let's say that's two lights per run on average.

Each run gains 6 minutes through the combination. It's 15-20 minutes to go end to end today, say it takes 30 minutes in the future, south of Union Station traffic goes much quicker . I'll assume it's dedicated lane and much better signal priority. Cutting those stops can give a 15% gain in line speed and it costs less money to be faster because we're not buying and installing concrete and equipment for as many stops.

Obviously real world this will vary but less stops is the quickest place to improve transit runs. It's much easier to coordinate lights and clear multiple blocks if the train isn't going to stop and wait a variable amount of time as often. Holding three lights is much the same as holding two since the spacing is just 0.2 miles apart and at 35mph it takes 35 seconds to cover that block. With a 120 second light cycles you can get the train to cover three blocks inside three block's light cycles easily

It's 3-4 minutes to walk a block and you can gain most of it back very easily.

[beautyfromashes]

^ It sounds like the lights are the issue, not the stops. Also, you are looking at the longest run on the new line section. There will be many people that will be running a much smaller route than the maximum and the extra walking distance would take more time than the saving of 1-2 stops.

[flyingember]

^ It sounds like the lights are the issue, not the stops. Also, you are looking at the longest run on the new line section. There will be many people that will be running a much smaller route than the maximum and the extra walking distance would take more time than the saving of 1-2 stops.

It's all very variable of course which is why you can't argue distinct cases. You have to think round trip in the aggregate. Some people will benefit less, some people will benefit more.

And think logically about placement not in terms of distance but location. If stops are placed wider apart different people will be close to it. So some people will see a decrease in distance. It's entirely possible to put stops 3 blocks apart and be closer to more people than placing them 2 blocks apart.

Real world, I'm not all that concerned about walking distance. After all, as this is public transit people are of course going to be walking to it. Someone that's annoyed their 6 minute walk became 8 minutes is probably going to drive anyways.

Thnk about bus transfer points. a system with 7 stops each way placed at major cross streets would mean people in the neighborhood gain some walking but dozens of bus riders get a nearly direct transfer. That would be placed roughly every four blocks instead of every two. If the train waits just 30 seconds per stop that's a savings of 8 minutes round trip and over a year roughly 50% of riders could gain 16 hours of time and we spent less money which is technicslly a direct tax savings for all these riders.

Spending less also increases the chance for free service. Is 2 minutes per trip worth $100 per month? I would argue that most low income riders would choose this trade off. Saving $1200 yearly times two workers is easily 4 months of rent in subsidized housing.

With such a setup could make the train be the very rapid service and have a parallel but slower local bus line that does stop every other block or more. Nothing says the two can't coexist

[beautyfromashes]

I assume that north and south stops will not be directly across from each other as they are for the Max stops now. That way, you average the walk distances for those in the area. You walk to the stop going to the streetcar might be 4 blocks, but when you come back it might be the opposite direction stop only a couple blocks away.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Have you considered the # of people getting on at each stop. Say, for example, 10 people get on at each stop, Linwood and 31st. Now, with a single stop 20 people get on. Any difference in time. Also consider 20 people getting off at one stop as opposed to 10 people getting off at 2 stops.

[beautyfromashes]

Are we just talking about midtown consolidations or other stops as well? 43rd and 45th combined? Federal Reserve and 31st?

[DaveKCMO]

Are we just talking about midtown consolidations or other stops as well? 43rd and 45th combined? Federal Reserve and 31st?

there is currently no plan to diverge from the nextrail plan when it comes to recommended stops. that will be up to the city once the TDD is in place.



that being said, final design downtown ended up consolidating or moving some stops:

- river market stops were modified into a counter-clockwise loop (versus double-tracking on delaware and 5th, neighborhood recommendation and grade issues -- not insurmountable -- traveling west on 5th)
- 8th was moved to 7th (mostly to entice growth, but also because a stop moved to 9th)
- 10th was moved to 9th, with northbound being located south of 9th (after the intersection is the preferred location, to prevent blocking of/by turning vehicles)
- northbound 14th was moved to the south side of the intersection (interference with entryway)
- 18th and 20th were consolidated at 19th (neighborhood recommendation, reduced cost, preserved some parking)
- union station was moved to the curb from the center (stakeholder recommendation, added cost)
- crown center was eliminated (reduced cost, simplified operations and expansion)

http://www.kcsmartmoves.org/pdf/downtow ... es-Map.pdf

[flyingember]

Have you considered the # of people getting on at each stop. Say, for example, 10 people get on at each stop, Linwood and 31st. Now, with a single stop 20 people get on. Any difference in time. Also consider 20 people getting off at one stop as opposed to 10 people getting off at 2 stops.

I have seen 100 people get off in 30 seconds. I've rode where it took as long to cover two blocks between stops as the train sat at the stop. I've got off the train and could have crossed the street behind the train before it left.

There's already three block gaps in the system and it has little impact on ridership (9th to 12th, 16th to 19th, around the city market) compared to the two block segments.

You can see how the plan is basically an every four block setup and mostly connects at major cross streets. It could use some tweaking, like why 26th vs 27th, but overall it's well thought out.

[beautyfromashes]

Those actually look like logical stops though I'd probably dump the Fed stop. The CC stop is right there. Not sure why you'd need two. Surprised at the Linwood elimination as that is a major connector east, but Armour and 31st are fairly close. A Linwood stop would be used more than a Fed stop two blocks from a CC stop. I would hope they would try put the stops south of 31st and north or Armour to make the distances more uniform.

[gfisch95]

Maybe I've missed them, but do we have any numbers on how ridership has been doing since the first weeks?

[scooterj]

Are we just talking about midtown consolidations or other stops as well? 43rd and

Interesting... so no Linwood stop at all? That's surprising.

What's the reason for 39th Street instead of Westport Road? I know it's only half a block but that particular half block makes a big difference in perception. Do we really want to dump our out-of-town visitors into a den of addicts and crime instead of where they are actually wanting to go?

Those actually look like logical stops though I'd probably dump the Fed stop. The CC stop is right there. Not sure why you'd need two.

I agree about not needing both but I'd dump the CC stop and keep Federal Reserve. The Crown Center stop seems redundant with the Union Station stop so close. Especially considering that between Pershing and 27th Street, there is no sidewalk on the east side of Main and there are no west-facing entrances to the Crown Center complex (other than parking garages) that riders/pedestrians could even use.

The Federal Reserve stop would be directly street-accessible to a large number of employees and also be heavily used by tourists visiting Liberty Memorial and Penn Valley Park. (Saves them from climbing the hill.) And for Crown Center office building employees, it's one block.

[earthling]

I could see favoring Armour/Main and 31st/Main over Linwood/Main if not doing all 3. Most tend to buy large or many items at Costco/Home Depot, the stores are not conducive to small bags on transit (in many cases). Armour is a high density neighborhood stretch and 31st is a major E/W bus line.

[flyingember]

Think future facing track, not what's there right now. Downtown in 2009 didn't look like downtown in 2015 when construction was underway

At the Fed is a park and one employer. 27th is already becoming redeveloped and could have hundreds of new residential units and more office space than the fed. So put a shared center stop halfway between the two. This gives reasonable distances both ways. Realign Grand and 27th with memorial and put the stop there. Nothing says a street has to stay where it is. That's one less stop light to slow everyone down. Cars benefits from a simpler light design too.

This is also a segment (31st to Pershing) it would be really easy to put in a dedicated lane with Main south of Pershing already down to two lanes each way if none of the rest of the track south is.a

39th vs Westport gives you connection to a major E-W street at 39th versus a clear destination at Westport. I don't expect 39th would remain a crime center with all the new foot traffic the train would bring. So that's no legitimate reason to not connect there. But this would be another good place for a single shared center platform that spans between the two streets. Hop off and turn one way to 39th and another for Westport Rd.

Look at the memorial hospital/Houston zoo stop for this model. It works better than it looks. Chicago does much the same with the el where many loop stops have exits both ways

I could see favoring Armour/Main and 31st/Main over Linwood/Main if not doing all 3. Most tend to buy large or many items at Costco/Home Depot, the stores are not conducive to small bags on transit (in many cases). Armour is a high density neighborhood stretch and 31st is a major E/W bus line.

As a frequent home improvement store customer, I would say there's more that would fit into a backpack than not for a downtown resident. Sure, someone on the train isn't going to buy lumber but they weren't planning to anyways. But something like light bulbs, wall hanging supplies, or a small potted plant for a balcony, or such would make complete sense. I can think of more small items one might purchase there than I want to list

[DaveKCMO]

Maybe I've missed them, but do we have any numbers on how ridership has been doing since the first weeks?

still solid. around 5K on weekdays, ramping up gradually from monday. weekends are easy 9-10K, depending on what's happening downtown. this last week should be off the charts because of maker faire.