KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[earthling]

BTW, check out this guide I put together for the city core. It will be much more appealing to avg joe who fears riding the bus to use this guide if it were a streetcar...

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1238514/pics/bus/maxmwk.gif

[KCPowercat]

That guy appears to be a huge douche.

[grovester]

But he's a chief strategist for an innovation company!

[KCPowercat]

Who the hell envies Indy?

[smh]

But he's a chief strategist for an innovation company!

That he founded.

I'm also the head of my company. SMH, Inc LLC LLP PA PC Corp.

[grovester]

But he's a chief strategist for an innovation company!

That he founded.

I'm also the head of my company. SMH, Inc LLC LLP PA PC Corp.

&

[DaveKCMO]

Sure you could build all of those MAX lines, but you'd spend a hell of a lot more to operate them all. Not comparable.

[flyingember]

service vehicle parking.

One thing about Main St is there's at least one place that UPS vehicles park in a driving lane on a regular basis. (SB between 9th and 10th) I've seen moving vans blocking lanes of traffic all the time downtown. this obviously won't work with the streetcar.

for the segment that is getting a middle turn lane it needs to be made legit for UPS and such to use. it could be 15 minute parking for these vehicles.

but what about longer-term needs like a electrician or AT&T or a catering van or a linen delivery and pickup or even a condo moving truck? many of them have vehicles too big for a garage. At work I deal with people all the time who can't use our garage because of the clearance, luckily we have a small lot they can use.

it seems like making some of the parking on the ends of rows for service vehicles only during the work day is a good idea. no charge spots for them and if you're not a known name or an authorized user (think like business licensing) you get a ticket.

[KCMax]

City ordinance proposal to appropriate $900,000 to the Public Mass Transportation Fund for planning.

[flyingember]

headways.

I took an idea from the Independence Ave thread and took it further

Imagine down the line we have built out to 51st/Main, north into NKC and down Indepdendence Ave. there's an interesting option for these lines since they all meet at 3rd and grand

think of it as a three pointed star with three lines:
Indep to 51st/Main
NKC to 51st/Main
Indep to NKC

you have heavy coverage on all three peak only. the meeting point would be the river market at the maintenance barn. (there'd be some doubling back on the third line)
this means triple the number of vehicles during peak times but double the coverage on each segment. this would give 5 minute headways
then non-peak you can slow down every vehicle to 15 minutes on every line and give 7.5 minute headways. or down to 20 minutes an give 10 minute headways.


say you take out Indep or NKC, we only build one of these two expansion lines. the same math holds up.
you could do two lines:
51st/Main to 3rd/Grand. (this line would someday extend down Independence Ave as above or NKC as above)
NKC OR Indep to 51st/Main

10 minutes during peak gives south of 3rd/Grand 5 minutes headway
then off peak north goes to every 15/20 minutes for both lines. this gives 7.5/10 minute headway south of 3rd/Grand.

past that it gets more complex.

[smh]

Is it just me or are you simply describing double-frequency on the 3rd/Grand to 51st/UMKC line and a second, less frequent line running from 3rd/Grand to either NKC or Indy Ave?

[flyingember]

Is it just me or are you simply describing double-frequency on the 3rd/Grand to 51st/UMKC line and a second, less frequent line running from 3rd/Grand to either NKC or Indy Ave?

No. alternating end points more like StL does but every train follows the common segment of the Y and splits off to the branches. without both NKC and Indep you'd be missing the arm but design it as it you do.

with two lines:
both run 51st/Main to 3rd and Grand. Alternate the vehicles ending at 3rd/Grand and going to NKC or Indep. you simply have northbound and southbound in NKC timed so they meet downtown 10 minutes apart


with three lines it works better:
imagine starting at the end of either of the three branches
From NKC you alternate vehicles to Indep Ave OR 51st/Main
from Indep Ave you alternate vehicles to NKC or 51st/Main
from 51st/Main you alternate vehicles to NKC or Indep Ave
each line is designed as a "Y"

this reinforces using every line for local service and increased frequency on each segment without needing to buy a ton of cars.

and by meeting at the same station, with half the vehicles people don't have to get off which speeds up stops.
for the other half people can choose to take it into downtown and transfer or change modes, say to bike share or to walk or to use their own bike

if commuter rail terminates in the river market the area becomes a big transfer spot for multiple modes.

[smh]

This is just a higher frequency line with an NKC/Indy spur.

[flyingember]

This is just a higher frequency line with an NKC/Indy spur.

map it out
a line is made up of the set of all stops a vehicle makes. pretty basic

this would have no spur off of a line
no high frequency segment
it would have three regular frequency lines with overlap.
if you run the vehicles the same speed no segment has any more frequency than another

when you take out one of the three arms and run the vehicles at the same spacing you have two overlapping lines running at the exact same pace
real world you have twice the number of vehicles on one segment and every other vehicle goes farther. but it can be extended into the three arm setup without changing the frequency of any existing line one bit, you just buy more vehicles so the existing shorter line keeps it's frequency and buy vehicles so the new line has the same frequency independent of the other two

[TheBigChuckbowski]

This is just a higher frequency line with an NKC/Indy spur.

map it out
a line is made up of the set of all stops a vehicle makes. pretty basic

this would have no spur off of a line
no high frequency segment
it would have three regular frequency lines with overlap.
if you run the vehicles the same speed no segment has any more frequency than another

when you take out one of the three arms and run the vehicles at the same spacing you have two overlapping lines running at the exact same pace
real world you have twice the number of vehicles on one segment and every other vehicle goes farther. but it can be extended into the three arm setup without changing the frequency of any existing line one bit, you just buy more vehicles so the existing shorter line keeps it's frequency and buy vehicles so the new line has the same frequency independent of the other two

You do change the frequency, though. If I'm on Independence and I want to go to Midtown, you're doubling the amount of time I have to wait for a vehicle. I don't see any ridership for an NKC/Independence line. Seems like taking that out would lead to higher frequency for places people would actually be going with less vehicles. Anyone wanting to go from Independence to NKC would get out in the River Market and would only have to wait 5 minutes for a vehicle (assuming 10 minute headways).

[shaffe]

This is how I phrased it when I proposed it in the Independence Ave thread:

. NKC/Indy Ave is mostly considered two halves of one bigger line. You also have the (soon to be) existing line that goes from River Market to, ultimately, UMKC.

-There's enough trains for 10 minute headways on the Phase I line
-Make sure there's enough trains for 10 minute headways across the Phase II line
-Combine the whole thing into one big 'Y' shape. Two lines worth of cars staggered could mean 5 minute headways through the core and 10 minute headways after the split through NKC and Indy Ave. One could get on at 32nd and N. Oak or Topping and Independence and ride all the way to UMKC without getting up.

What I envision is a scenario not unlike the Loop in Chicago where there's a train going by every few minutes, but maybe not the one you want if you're taking it outside of the loop. Only our "Loop" would be from River Market to UMKC and there's only two end point options (to begin).

Another way to consider it is once extensions through NKC and to Topping/Independence Ave are finished we take existing trains and combine them with new trains to establish two lines (NKC/Independence Ave). Those two lines run 10 minute headways from their northern terminus all the way to UMKC using a shared track from River Market on, but they run on a stagger/zipper so that a train goes by every 5 minutes between RM and UMKC.

Hypothetically I suppose this type of overlap could be utilized with expansions up N. Oak and further east through Jackson County, though the demand for short headways isn't likely to extend past RM-UMKC running north/south.

[flyingember]

This is how I phrased it when I proposed it in the Independence Ave thread:

What I envision is a scenario not unlike the Loop in Chicago where there's a train going by every few minutes, but maybe not the one you want if you're taking it outside of the loop. Only our "Loop" would be from River Market to UMKC and there's only two end point options (to begin).

Another way to consider it is once extensions through NKC and to Topping/Independence Ave are finished we take existing trains and combine them with new trains to establish two lines (NKC/Independence Ave). Those two lines run 10 minute headways from their northern terminus all the way to UMKC using a shared track from River Market on, but they run on a stagger/zipper so that a train goes by every 5 minutes between RM and UMKC.

Hypothetically I suppose this type of overlap could be utilized with expansions up N. Oak and further east through Jackson County, though the demand for short headways isn't likely to extend past RM-UMKC running north/south.

exactly my idea but without the third line. I built off of your idea to show how three lines could work with more coverage.

I see some need for more coverage to the north than infrequent service.

People often forget that the neighborhoods along N. Oak are very much like midtown with a lot of apartments.

North Oak is also much like Main Street in feel. It has a lot of modern suburban retail but it has a lot of old shopping centers, parking lots and empty lots. It's ripe for redevelopment.

Aldi's owns land they could use for a second store 30 blocks from another one, both on North Oak. That's quite dense for the same chain north of the river and to have zero stores in midtown.

[KCtonic]

One question I have regarding the current streetcar plan is how it might change Delaware in the river market. I love that street & hopefully the streetcar will make the shops/restaurants along there more successful, but how might it change the layout? Currently there is diagonal parking spaces, a single driving lane and fairly wide sidewalks. Will any of that change with the line going through there?

[earthling]

Yeah, am interested to see how that works. This stretch of streetcar line may have the most immediate potential for TOD (or at least more retail/eats due to presence of streetcar). It could become another w39th if it tried.

[KCPowercat]

One question I have regarding the current streetcar plan is how it might change Delaware in the river market. I love that street & hopefully the streetcar will make the shops/restaurants along there more successful, but how might it change the layout? Currently there is diagonal parking spaces, a single driving lane and fairly wide sidewalks. Will any of that change with the line going through there?

My guess / hope would be back in diagonal or parallel with additional greenscape in the gained space.