KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[flyingember]

a new gas tax in Missouri. that's even more funny than the idea of toll roads

the problem with such a low gas tax is even the roads aren't getting money for repairs. you can't just ignore the roads completely

[earthling]

I can understand that a gas tax for public transportation wouldn't go well for areas of the state that don't get to benefit from it. MO needs to allow cities to choose based on zipcode or some local level where gas taxes in those zips or transit corridors can be applied to transit. It takes cars off the roads.

Has anything been pushed with Jeff City lately on localizing how gas tax is used? MO has among lowest gas tax as it is. They should allow local increase if cities want it.

[pash]

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[Eon Blue]

As a state with 75% of the population in urban areas, are any of our electeds working to unwind this stupidity?

Don't forget, that 75% figure includes all of the SUV-driving suburbanites who think transit is only for the poors.

[DaveKCMO]

someone could also sue the state for violating title VI of the civil rights act...

http://dc.streetsblog.org/2012/06/15/mi ... ghts-case/

[beautyfromashes]

I've been hearing the state transportation money argument a lot lately. It seems that people think that is the best way to get funds for extending the streetcar and light rail initiatives. I don't think it will work, and it's not even worth the wind to argue about. The gas tax goes to roads in Missouri and we have to find another way to fund railed transportation. The starter line tax vote was ingenious. I just don't see the same method working when extending on to the Plaza. For some reason, the neighborhoods between downtown and the Plaza are against rail on Main or Broadway. So, how is this getting funded? What's the next great way to get funding for an extension?

[chaglang]

I just don't see the same method working when extending on to the Plaza. For some reason, the neighborhoods between downtown and the Plaza are against rail on Main or Broadway.

I hadn't heard that. Could you elaborate: rationale, neighborhoods, etc?

[DaveKCMO]

it could work for part of the cost (or just operations), but not 75% of the capital and 100% of the operations like downtown. there simply isn't enough value to capture, before you even get to the political calculus. regardless, here's a map of how the city voted for light rail in 2008 (note the majority approval in midtown/plaza wards):

[grovester]

I guess I'm still not understanding. Is it too residential? Less commercial value? Would the plaza itself be included in a taxing district?

[ignatius]

It may have been posted earlier but what is cost to build this version of streetcar compared to LRT (per mile). And what are annual maintenance comparisons per mile? I know modern streetcar is less but is it like 1/3 less, 1/2?

I do hope they select some form of self-powered cars and not use ugly power lines. Would think maintenance of the power lines alone would be high.

[beautyfromashes]

Looking at the map, I suppose it could pass. But, 2008 was a much different place than the economic hell of 2012/13. And, I think that people liked that it was a grand plan paid for by the entire city. Trying to push it through where just certain areas would shoulder the main expense would be a bad gamble. I personally don't think it would pass and I think the blue haired old crazies along Main will put up a significant fight.

[DaveKCMO]

I guess I'm still not understanding. Is it too residential? Less commercial value? Would the plaza itself be included in a taxing district?

less value, period... even with the plaza included.

the $50 million per mile for downtown includes many fixed costs that an extension wouldn't shoulder (maintenance facility, spare vehicles/parts). it's not assumed that it would stop every 2 blocks once it leaves downtown (the "urban rail" or "fast streetcar" concept), so you might not have as many stations per mile.

if you built 2 extensions at once, you could potentially save on vehicle costs.

compared to full light rail which might run you $70+ million per mile (if built as a start-up system).

overhead wires will be used throughout the system. we don't have any historic or aesthetic restrictions, so it simply doesn't make sense to gamble on unproven vehicle designs (france, etc. blah blah blah) when it hamstrings you into that technology forever.

[kboish]

I have a feeling nothing will come before KC voters on extensions until it is decided whether or not a county wide vote will happen. I am really hoping the county passes something...or at least puts it on the ballot.

[DaveKCMO]

Looking at the map, I suppose it could pass. But, 2008 was a much different place than the economic hell of 2012/13. And, I think that people liked that it was a grand plan paid for by the entire city. Trying to push it through where just certain areas would shoulder the main expense would be a bad gamble. I personally don't think it would pass and I think the blue haired old crazies along Main will put up a significant fight.

once you constrain the vote/cost to a certain area, the conversation shifts. it's neighbor vs. neighbor, which is completely different than lobbing missives from afar.

nationwide, transit votes did very well this year proving that if you tell people exactly what you're building and there is an actual need, they will vote yes:

http://www.cfte.org/pages/2012presspost

also, remind yourself how many local tax votes passed this year (all of them?).

[flyingember]

I guess I'm still not understanding. Is it too residential? Less commercial value? Would the plaza itself be included in a taxing district?

the $50 million per mile for downtown includes many fixed costs that an extension wouldn't shoulder (maintenance facility, spare vehicles/parts). it's not assumed that it would stop every 2 blocks once it leaves downtown (the "urban rail" or "fast streetcar" concept), so you might not have as many stations per mile.

some segments will cost more, a MO River crossing will be pricy

But yes, NKC doesn't need a ton of stops, be it on Swift or Burlington
Two industrial, three residential
32nd, 26th, Armour, two from 16th to 10th

As it's on a MARC urban core line, the segment north won't need many either. I'd put one at 42nd unless there's a good way to not have a stop on grade at Cerner Oaks.

A future phase 3 down Armour it could stop at Howell, Ozark (for the stoplight), at the new redevelopment project at Taney, and then skip ahead to NKC Hospital/Cerner (24x7 jobs center and well paying jobs, good downtown residents). 5x new stops in 1.5 miles vs 11 in 2 miles downtown. downtown NKC is very walkable, no need to have more than 2x stops in it
that interstate interchange is actually a great model for a highway interchange with a dedicated pedestrian path and it's a quick light cycle conductive to transit.


South of Crown Center I'd like to see a Main St redesign to push speed. This is one segment I'd like to see the on street parking pushed onto side streets and the system given a dedicated transit lane each way + implement on as many cross streets as possible a physical blockade for no crossing Main/left turns. Allow u-turns at major intersections instead. It could really move if the 25 segment block was down to just ~8 street lights and crossing points.

[beautyfromashes]

once you constrain the vote/cost to a certain area, the conversation shifts.

You have to remember, the price also shifts. That's a lot of cash to shoulder on as little as 10 zip codes and I think that weight will change some votes and bring out more opposition than past votes. I think the reason the vote along the State Line corridor was so strong last time was because of the city payment aspect. We were getting a brand new Mercedes with someone else helping foot the bill. I'm not sure we would buy a Mercedes is we had to pay for it all ourselves.

I'm as big a proponent of light rail/streetcar as most anyone, but I think this cars on black ice. A vote to tax the universities to cover part of the cost (since they are having a huge benefit with dual campuses) along with a MainCor taxing district that would tax the businesses along the line (who also would benefit the most) is the best way to fund the extension.

[beautyfromashes]

South of Crown Center I'd like to see a Main St redesign to push speed. This is one segment I'd like to see the on street parking pushed onto side streets and the system given a dedicated transit lane each way + implement on as many cross streets as possible a physical blockade for no crossing Main/left turns. Allow u-turns at major intersections instead. It could really move if the 25 segment block was down to just ~8 street lights and crossing points.

Here is an example of why I've seen the neighborhoods between DT and the Plaza be against light rail. You're going to increase traffic speeds because of no turns, make it difficult to get to their houses and dump a ton of cars in front of their houses. I know people like Aggie Stackhouse and Lydia Carson seem batshit crazy but they can put up a lot of resistance for light rail. I would put it against them to put up a huge fight.

[DaveKCMO]

FYI: there is no design for main street south of union station yet, let alone a financial proposal. anything discussed here is pure conjecture.

one thing i can tell you is that the plan to expand will be designed to succeed, not to simply repeat previous failures.

[chaglang]

This is one segment I'd like to see the on street parking pushed onto side streets and the system given a dedicated transit lane each way + implement on as many cross streets as possible a physical blockade for no crossing Main/left turns. Allow u-turns at major intersections instead. It could really move if the 25 segment block was down to just ~8 street lights and crossing points.

The parking would be a nightmare for residents and businesses, and you're creating an E-W barrier across midtown. It sounds like SW Trafficway with streetcars. No thanks.

[flyingember]

South of Crown Center I'd like to see a Main St redesign to push speed. This is one segment I'd like to see the on street parking pushed onto side streets and the system given a dedicated transit lane each way + implement on as many cross streets as possible a physical blockade for no crossing Main/left turns. Allow u-turns at major intersections instead. It could really move if the 25 segment block was down to just ~8 street lights and crossing points.

Here is an example of why I've seen the neighborhoods between DT and the Plaza be against light rail. You're going to increase traffic speeds because of no turns, make it difficult to get to their houses and dump a ton of cars in front of their houses. I know people like Aggie Stackhouse and Lydia Carson seem batshit crazy but they can put up a lot of resistance for light rail. I would put it against them to put up a huge fight.

actually a New Orleans transit line is my basis for this idea.

one of the major through streets has very few left turns total. most people have to do a u-turn to get to any other street.
there's homes equal in size to Ward Parkway fronting it. not a block off, but fronting closer than Ward Parkway has.
and it has a streetcar line.
the thing I thought was strange is there were too many u-turn spots. they were endless.

and you won't increase speeds. I'd cut it down to 2-lanes each way. one of these lanes would slow down because of all the right turns being made.

so you'd turn what's mostly a 6-lane road controlled by lights, which encourage speeding to beat the next light, and turn it into a heavy turning street.