ah, ok thanks, i had looked at others and there was no mention.ComandanteCero wrote: the handicap accessibility issue is up to the design of the particular PRT system (there are several companies offering their own version of PRT). for example, the Skyweb design addresses handicapped passengers thus:
Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
- warwickland
- Oak Tower
- Posts: 4834
- Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:29 pm
- Location: St. Louis County, MO
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
- bahua
- Administrator
- Posts: 10940
- Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:39 pm
- Location: Out of Town
- Contact:
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
The whole issue with human interaction isn't that big a deal, in my opinion, because using a system like Skytran, you don't spend a lot of time using it. You get where you're going. The interaction is as important as it is with current popular transit methods because current methods are so slow that people need to fill the time with some humanity. That's fine, but I consider it a result of the technology being too slow.
- warwickland
- Oak Tower
- Posts: 4834
- Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:29 pm
- Location: St. Louis County, MO
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
maybe we should create wide swaths of asphalt for people to get from point a to point b quicker than bus or LRT in detatched skytrans that people can now control!bahua wrote: The whole issue with human interaction isn't that big a deal, in my opinion, because using a system like Skytran, you don't spend a lot of time using it. You get where you're going. The interaction is as important as it is with current popular transit methods because current methods are so slow that people need to fill the time with some humanity. That's fine, but I consider it a result of the technology being too slow.
sorry for being an ass.
-
- Administrator
- Posts: 11240
- Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:00 am
- Location: Historic Northeast
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
Shouldn't be a big deal, one imagines. But even if it's infeasible for some reason, it doesn't negate the worth of the system, in my opinion. There will still be buses with bike racks.Kard wrote: I wanna see a skytran pod with a bike rack.
Similarly, it's one of my explanations as to why I don't think transportation planning is acceptable in its present form.warwickland wrote: that would absolutely flunk the whole system for me if i was a transportation planner, and its one of my explanations as to why i dont think PRT is acceptable in present form.
Yes, it might make someone feel good to know they've developed a system that can accomodate all the people all the time. But it does a city a lot more good to have a system that can accomodate most of the people most of the time, for an exponentially smaller price tag. In this case, especially given that we're so painfully short on funds and have very much other important and expensive work to do, economic practicality strikes me as the most important factor.
Last edited by mean on Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It is not to my good friend's heresy that I impute his honesty. On the contrary, 'tis his honesty that has brought upon him the character of heretic." -- Ben Franklin
- kard
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 5627
- Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:37 pm
- Location: Kingdom of Waldo
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
I'm not bashing PRT here, just thinkingwarwickland wrote: maybe we should create wide swaths of asphalt for people to get from point a to point b quicker than bus or LRT in detatched skytrans that people can now control!
sorry for being an ass.
This is a good point. Would PRT be able to handle something like rush hour? At first it would supplement automobile and freeway traffic, but I'm not seeing how a single-track of PRT pods could carry the density of a freeway or a train. Even if the track is full of flying pods it would still be single file.
Haikus are easy
But sometimes they don't make sense
Refrigerator
But sometimes they don't make sense
Refrigerator
-
- Administrator
- Posts: 11240
- Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:00 am
- Location: Historic Northeast
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
Yes, but do you realize how much smaller pods are than cars?! How many people drive SUVs that can hold 5-10 people, to get one person to work? Clearly you didn't read any of the information, my friend. This is probably the most relevant link, but I encourage you to read the rest of the site:Kard wrote: I'm not bashing PRT here, just thinking
This is a good point. Would PRT be able to handle something like rush hour? At first it would supplement automobile and freeway traffic, but I'm not seeing how a single-track of PRT pods could carry the density of a freeway or a train. Even if the track is full of flying pods it would still be single file.
http://skytran.net/01Homepage/congestion-animation.htm
Of course, the same benefits would apply to PRT systems in general.
"It is not to my good friend's heresy that I impute his honesty. On the contrary, 'tis his honesty that has brought upon him the character of heretic." -- Ben Franklin
- justin8216
- Valencia Place
- Posts: 1822
- Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:52 pm
- Location: Kansas City
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
I thought he moved to Saudi Arabia with Michael Jackson?
- kard
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 5627
- Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:37 pm
- Location: Kingdom of Waldo
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
Has any city ever done public PRT? Would this be like (gulp) "building two stadiums side-by-side"?
Haikus are easy
But sometimes they don't make sense
Refrigerator
But sometimes they don't make sense
Refrigerator
- ComandanteCero
- One Park Place
- Posts: 6222
- Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:40 am
- Location: OP
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
this would be like sending the Spirit of St. Louis across the atlantic. We'd be the first city in the world to implement a transportation technology that will almost surely catch on in the coming century as it becomes more familiar, and becomes tested and proven to public officials.
KC Region is all part of the same animal regardless of state and county lines.
Think on the Regional scale.
Think on the Regional scale.
-
- Administrator
- Posts: 11240
- Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:00 am
- Location: Historic Northeast
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
Hah! No, no city has implemented PRT on any significant scale that I am aware of. But there was a time when no city had implemented underground trains, a time when no city had implemented streetcars, a time when no city had implemented buses...why not be bold and attempt something new and innovative, rather than play catchup?Kard wrote: Has any city ever done public PRT? Would this be like (gulp) "building two stadiums side-by-side"?
I appreciate your analogy, but I don't think that you can fairly compare the TSC to PRT. Yes, we'd be the first on both counts, but one was an experiment designed to forge ahead into the unknown, at a time when suburban-styled development was predicted to be the future; the other is an attempt to bring us back from that experiment to the degree possible, toward traditional schools of urban design thought. You could say that one represents the mistake, while the other is an attempted solution.
"It is not to my good friend's heresy that I impute his honesty. On the contrary, 'tis his honesty that has brought upon him the character of heretic." -- Ben Franklin
- staubio
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 6958
- Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:17 am
- Location: River Market
- Contact:
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
I almost completely buy into the promise of PRT, but I think the big loss there is the corridor of additional investment and density that springs up along the rail line. The permanence of those stations does a lot fo development. PRT is as flexible as cars, basically, and wouldn't require -- and this wouldn't create -- nodes of density.
I say we go for it, though. Why don't we shut Clay down with our own PRT ballot initiative. Get the signatures, explain it the public, put it on the ballot. It should be a much easier sell with a lot more stuff for more people with less cost. Anyone know how to contact Clay and ask him to switch gears a bit, especially if we deliver an army of backers -- or shall we just take over?
I say we go for it, though. Why don't we shut Clay down with our own PRT ballot initiative. Get the signatures, explain it the public, put it on the ballot. It should be a much easier sell with a lot more stuff for more people with less cost. Anyone know how to contact Clay and ask him to switch gears a bit, especially if we deliver an army of backers -- or shall we just take over?
- schugg
- Hotel President
- Posts: 3279
- Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:02 am
- Location: kcmo
- Contact:
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
just take over! can be done.staubio wrote: I almost completely buy into the promise of PRT, but I think the big loss there is the corridor of additional investment and density that springs up along the rail line. The permanence of those stations does a lot fo development. PRT is as flexible as cars, basically, and wouldn't require -- and this wouldn't create -- nodes of density.
I say we go for it, though. Why don't we shut Clay down with our own PRT ballot initiative. Get the signatures, explain it the public, put it on the ballot. It should be a much easier sell with a lot more stuff for more people with less cost. Anyone know how to contact Clay and ask him to switch gears a bit, especially if we deliver an army of backers -- or shall we just take over?
- kard
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 5627
- Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:37 pm
- Location: Kingdom of Waldo
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
Well...taking over...baby steps. I think the most one could hope for is spreading the word about this. I wouldn't expect it to pass the first time. But it could later on. Not to say this wouldn't be worth the time and effort, but being realistic, one would have to get a lot more support then just some folks from an Internet fourm going for it.
(Someone contact Fairfield...and then get him elected).
That said, I'm all for it.
(Someone contact Fairfield...and then get him elected).
That said, I'm all for it.
Haikus are easy
But sometimes they don't make sense
Refrigerator
But sometimes they don't make sense
Refrigerator
- warwickland
- Oak Tower
- Posts: 4834
- Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:29 pm
- Location: St. Louis County, MO
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
my position is that people barely know a damn thing about LRT in this city - looking at the last election. imagine trying to sell PRT? not to be a debbie downer, just being realistic. if it is the technology it promises to be, its about 20 years too early (that is to say 30 for KC). LRT has a pretty good track record, but PRT is unproven, good luck with hyde park, etc.
- 49r
- Colonnade
- Posts: 835
- Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 11:08 am
- Location: Kansas City, MO
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
I'm not so sure having a commuter-based LRT system terminate in Swope park is such a bad idea. It's in the middle of a highly residential neighborhood (plenty of daily commuters) and would provide ample Park-N-Ride opportunities. A must for commuters.
Plus, I think that more local folks would utilize the train to get to the airport than visitors to KC, out of towners who presently need a rental car would still need to rent a car, LRT shouldn't have any impact on that.
Plus, I think that more local folks would utilize the train to get to the airport than visitors to KC, out of towners who presently need a rental car would still need to rent a car, LRT shouldn't have any impact on that.
-
- Administrator
- Posts: 11240
- Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:00 am
- Location: Historic Northeast
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
I'm contacting the Unimodal people to see if they have anything constructive to add or campaign materials to donate. If we raised some money and ran a legit campaign, we might have a chance. In any case, we have a better public name than Clay Chastain.
To do this we'd have to decide on a name, then register with the state and register a domain. Then we'd have to put up a informative web site that solicits donations. Shoot press releases to everyone; I have contacts at various local media outlets, and local blogs will pick it up. Solicit more donations. Spend the money on further promotion. Petition drives, obviously. How about TV and radio commercials? Yard signs? Organized rallies?
I've given thought to running this campaign for years so I have a lot of ideas and in fact a web site started for my nonexistent campaign organization, from back when I thought LRT was the answer. Naming ideas? I'm willing to register a domain and build (or commission the building of) a web site, do the legal legwork with the state, and write and distribute press releases.
To do this we'd have to decide on a name, then register with the state and register a domain. Then we'd have to put up a informative web site that solicits donations. Shoot press releases to everyone; I have contacts at various local media outlets, and local blogs will pick it up. Solicit more donations. Spend the money on further promotion. Petition drives, obviously. How about TV and radio commercials? Yard signs? Organized rallies?
I've given thought to running this campaign for years so I have a lot of ideas and in fact a web site started for my nonexistent campaign organization, from back when I thought LRT was the answer. Naming ideas? I'm willing to register a domain and build (or commission the building of) a web site, do the legal legwork with the state, and write and distribute press releases.
"It is not to my good friend's heresy that I impute his honesty. On the contrary, 'tis his honesty that has brought upon him the character of heretic." -- Ben Franklin
- ComandanteCero
- One Park Place
- Posts: 6222
- Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:40 am
- Location: OP
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
Well, here are a couple of issues with PRT (playing devil's advocate):
1) Not proven. Need to help fund a test track, through some combination of private and public funds, more private than public.
2) What PRT system do you "endorse". There are several companies out there with their own version (Skytrac, Skytran, Skycab, etc etc), if you pick one, who do you pick?
3) Need federal approval (this would be in tandem to tests run at the test track).
4) Once the test track has been built, proven, tested, and the technology approved, would need to prove Kansas Citians that it works, and we should help fund this private venture.
p.s: i should add there is a modified PRT system in West Virgina. It's something of a hybrid in that it carries up to 8 people in a vehicle, and it looks like hell. But it was built in the late 70's, as a test system, by the Federal government (back when the government was more progressive and was actually funding research into new modes of transportation ((this funding dried up in the Reagan years, and never came back))).
1) Not proven. Need to help fund a test track, through some combination of private and public funds, more private than public.
2) What PRT system do you "endorse". There are several companies out there with their own version (Skytrac, Skytran, Skycab, etc etc), if you pick one, who do you pick?
3) Need federal approval (this would be in tandem to tests run at the test track).
4) Once the test track has been built, proven, tested, and the technology approved, would need to prove Kansas Citians that it works, and we should help fund this private venture.
p.s: i should add there is a modified PRT system in West Virgina. It's something of a hybrid in that it carries up to 8 people in a vehicle, and it looks like hell. But it was built in the late 70's, as a test system, by the Federal government (back when the government was more progressive and was actually funding research into new modes of transportation ((this funding dried up in the Reagan years, and never came back))).
KC Region is all part of the same animal regardless of state and county lines.
Think on the Regional scale.
Think on the Regional scale.
- DaveKCMO
- Ambassador
- Posts: 20064
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
- Location: Crossroads
- Contact:
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
you could do a secure online poll (unique users vote only once) on which stops people would use. for example, the plaza would probably be the top location, followed by the sports complex, downtown, and the airport. string them all together and there's your route (or two)!mean wrote: To do this we'd have to decide on a name, then register with the state and register a domain. Then we'd have to put up a informative web site that solicits donations. Shoot press releases to everyone; I have contacts at various local media outlets, and local blogs will pick it up. Solicit more donations. Spend the money on further promotion. Petition drives, obviously. How about TV and radio commercials? Yard signs? Organized rallies?
- bbqboy
- Broadway Square
- Posts: 2920
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:25 am
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
I would be afraid to go FAST in that, as it looks like a VW Bus on Tracks.
-
- Administrator
- Posts: 11240
- Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:00 am
- Location: Historic Northeast
Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail
Agreed. I think this money could easily be raised through private donations. You're talking about significantly less than a million dollars.1) Not proven. Need to help fund a test track, through some combination of private and public funds, more private than public.
Personally, I would pick SkyTran because I know the most about it, and its specifications (http://www.skytran.net/04Technical/pod12.htm) make the most sense to me. I would like to hear arguments for other systems (PRT or otherwise), but SkyTran is so well-engineered that it would take a pretty remarkable system to beat it, in my opinion.2) What PRT system do you "endorse". There are several companies out there with their own version (Skytrac, Skytran, Skycab, etc etc), if you pick one, who do you pick?
I dunno about this. We can do what we want, more or less, as far as I know. In any case, that's pretty far down the road. Baby steps...3) Need federal approval (this would be in tandem to tests run at the test track).
I think once all that is done, private investment will take care of almost everything. Once we can demonstrate that this works, and is so cheap and efficient that it can make a profit, I think we will find venture capitalists willing to invest in the future of Kansas City. You gotta figure, something like this will attract visitors and residents on a scale Kansas City hasn't seen since the mid-19th Century, and businesses will follow. Economic development will progress differently than along a traditional rail spine, for sure, but it will inevitably happen.4) Once the test track has been built, proven, tested, and the technology approved, would need to prove Kansas Citians that it works, and we should help fund this private venture.
Some public investment would be great, too, though. Ideally I would like to get a little money from the state and federal governments if possible, and any metro counties that want to participate could opt-in. At the end of the day, what would be really great would be to team up with St. Louis with state and federal money, and build a line between the two cities. SkyTran performs at 200mph between cities. You're looking at about $25 to get there in a little over an hour. Cross-state deals would be awesome, too. Think big. The idea would eventually be to add in Lawrence, Topka, Wichita, Des Moines, Omaha...! Just imagine the ability to travel cheaply at 200mph between all our regional cities. The casual tourism would be incredible. "Hey honey, let's go to Omaha for dinner!"
But, baby steps...
Also, that West Virginia thing is horrid!
"It is not to my good friend's heresy that I impute his honesty. On the contrary, 'tis his honesty that has brought upon him the character of heretic." -- Ben Franklin