Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Transportation topics in KC

How will you vote on Chastain's LRT proposal?

I will vote Yes!
83
56%
I will vote No!
39
26%
I don't vote!
8
5%
I don't live in KCMO
18
12%
 
Total votes: 148

flyingember
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by flyingember »

Upsetting the status quo hurts.

underfunded isn't true because the council made it so it can build exactly what it can fund. Remember, it's worded to be literally exactly funded with what money is available from the taxes on the ballot.  The word underfunded DOES NOT apply with that phrase in the language.

unworkable isn't true because it can follow multiple streetcar corridors the city has already says can be built. NKC to downtown, Union Station to Linwood towards the stadiums and Union Station towards Brookside, without streets defined, are four Nextrail and Northrail corridors. These are already priority rail corridors.

Steals from the bus is technically true, if you ignore how the plan wants to buy busses. You know how the plan doesn't define what percentage of busses must be bought and what percentage of train must be built? It could replace all lost bus service with new bus service. The bus tax doesn't go away for several more years giving time to work out that portion.


There's four wildcards that I see.
1. the eastside voted against the city approved streetcar plan. So will they vote for a citywide tax that the city doesn't want to spite it?
2. Anti-establishment vote will be out in force. An outsider trying to get something pushed through seems in line with this
3. This plan has all the destinations the northland wants on it. It goes to multiple jobs centers from the northland. It goes to the airport and the eastside.
4. This vote is anti-union because in a lowest bid environment a company like Herzog Transit has a leg up. If enough people catch onto this there's a LOT of people that will vote yes to spite the transit union.
Last edited by flyingember on Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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grovester
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by grovester »

Once you use "ignore" I pretty much stopped reading!
flyingember wrote:Upsetting the status quo hurts.

underfunded isn't true because the council made it so it can build exactly what it can fund. Remember, it's worded to be literally exactly funded with what money is available.  The word underfunded DOES NOT apply with that phrase in the language.
unworkable isn't true because it can follow multiple streetcar corridors the city has already says can be built. NKC to downtown, Union Station to Linwood towards the stadiums and Union Station towards Brookside, without streets defined, are four Nextrail and Northrail corridors.

Steals from the bus is technically true, if you ignore how the plan wants to buy busses. You know how the plan doesn't define what percentage of busses must be bought and what percentage of train must be built? It could replace all lost bus service with new bus service. The bus tax doesn't go away for several more years giving time to work out that portion.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by flyingember »

How about I quote the ballot language instead.
and also including a fleet of electric mini-buses (to transport passengers to and from light rail stations)
This ballot item does steal bus money, but it buys busses with it. The size of this fleet is undefined. In theory this fleet could be equal to the number of busses the KCATA is planning to replace. Since it doesn't say who must operate the busses it could buy busses for the KCATA.

No, it's not a perfect 1:1 situation to what we have today, but it's not all doom and gloom.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by pash »

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Last edited by pash on Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by DaveKCMO »

pash wrote:Hmm, the poll attached to this thread says 57% of us are going to vote for it. (Although there might be some ballot-stuffing there—135 votes? I'm pretty sure there are only like ten of us on this forum.)
that poll goes back to 2006. 8-[
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by flyingember »

This is what I hope happens

1. it passes

2. the council repeals taking the bus tax. This leaves a 3/8 cent new tax on the books. Guessing that's about $500 million
3. The city immediately funds final engineering on the already studied UMKC, Linwood and NKC lines to be shovel ready.
4. It waits on the result of the TDD vote to go further into the process

5. partners with Jackson, Platte, Clay, MARC, MoDOT, Gladstone, Raytown and NKC to help further fund the lines.
6. Talks with MoDOT to replace the I-29/N Oak intersection. This is in need of replacement with new geometry as it's horrible for cars and the street can't be lowered due being a water main route

7. City submits a request for a federal match of at least 50% based on all the local funding sources available.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by DaveKCMO »

flyingember wrote: 3. The city immediately funds final engineering on the already studied UMKC, Linwood and NKC lines to be shovel ready.
you clearly haven't been talking to anyone on the council.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by dnweava »

Just voted yes. I want light rail but we already know the city council will screw us out of it again even if it passes.

Streetcar is very slow. Outside of downtown we need something faster and in it's own right of way.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by Bill Durban »

Dave I believe you are earnest in your attempt to carefully orchestrate streetcar expansion in the most beneficial and expedient way. The problem I fear is that if the Chastain plan is struck down again it will have a detrimental effect on streetcar expansion as well. I think officials would have to take the stance that voters don’t want ANY type of expansion of the system. Most people in suburban KCMO still don’t know enough about the streetcar to distinguish it from light-rail. How then would the city turn around and say, “We’re going forward with the streetcar extension.” I think the uniformed voters would be confused by that and I don’t see any amount of sales pitching and finesse at that point that would resound well with them. An example is the knee jerk reaction the Mayor took regarding polling results of the airport initiate before it went to voters. We are seeing now that the business community will have to get involved in that to make it happen (and it isn’t even a taxpayer funded issue).

If light-rail passes it won’t belong to Chastain, so I agree with pash that entities will need to work together and take this in a direction that will benefit both the streetcar extension and the beginnings of a light rail system. The city already knows that the starter line has a positive backing across the board. They’ll just have to figure out how best to incrementally build it, while continuing to sell “it” to the community.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by DaveKCMO »

Bill Durban wrote:If light-rail passes it won’t belong to Chastain...
i disagree. this council -- as a group -- will not want to hitch their mayoral aspiration wagons to this plan and have to decide which part of the city clay promised light rail to won't get it (it conveniently passes through every district -- imagine the tug of war!).

it will always be chastain's, even if he doesn't control its destiny after today. he would never leave it alone, dragging the city to court for every small disagreement.

the only benefit to this vote is that it will provide additional precinct-level data to craft future elections that support officially-backed plans.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by Bill Durban »

So you are saying they will poo poo it if it passes? Why can’t they just take the essence of his plan and make it what the city needs and what those of us that care, want?

I haven’t voted yet and I don’t want to contribute to anything that will stop or slow down the extension of the streetcar’s progress…so you tell me?
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by flyingember »

Bill Durban wrote:Most people in suburban KCMO still don’t know enough about the streetcar to distinguish it from light-rail. How then would the city turn around and say, “We’re going forward with the streetcar extension.” .
Because we haven't figured out what we're building yet.

Houston's downtown segment has shared traffic and stops spaced about the same as KC so our downtown line does not define the style of system we build.

Train size, track length, if it majority has it's own lane/ROW and stop spacing are the defining factors that separate light rail from streetcar. You find way most light rail with all of these items and most streetcars with none. (not all systems meet either term perfectly)

Charlotte light rail started with single trains and expanded platforms. We could expand platforms.
We did studies from NE 32nd to 85th, close to the length of the Houston Red line. So we're pacing them on length
Every 3-4 blocks is wider spacing than part of the Boston green line light rail.

So the defining factor, but not the final factor, on what we're building will come down to if the system gets it's own lane outside downtown.

The other three can be followup work after expanding track. Like would we expand platforms or add infill stops. Would be build to 85th or build more short length lines with downtown-style spacing.

Without that dedicated lane we would be running really long streetcars, with it we could run light rail trains.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by flyingember »

Bill Durban wrote:So you are saying they will poo poo it if it passes? Why can’t they just take the essence of his plan and make it what the city needs and what those of us that care, want?

I haven’t voted yet and I don’t want to contribute to anything that will stop or slow down the extension of the streetcar’s progress…so you tell me?
They can. The argument Dave is making is the council doesn't want to and would repeal it. I don't see the actions taken as showing this path as one of interest and I would argue it's not realistic.

The city would rather it not pass.

If passed the city council has an uphill battle it try to repeal it as unworkable. The city would need to explain why the legal department worked with Chastain to make it doable and then council voted for changes in a way they knew they could lay track, since they changed the text so it can build several streetcar corridors we've studied, and added one tiny phrase so no matter how little money is available track can be laid.

I bet the city could repeal just taking the bus tax on some civil rights (disrupting minority service) or ADA grounds (para transit) because they're not obligated to have money for all the track described. Using just two of the taxes would still let them meet the wording of the ordinance.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by pash »

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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by WSPanic »

I ended up voting against. I'd like to see it happen some day, but I have no confidence this plan could come close to working.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by shaffe »

Voted yes here. If nothing else I hope it might serve as a kick in the ass to the council to quit pushing aside transit improvement as a citywide need. I won't be upset if it doesn't pass though.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by DaveKCMO »

flyingember
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by flyingember »

2014 TDD: 60.19% No
2016 citywide: 59.63% No. 77913 Yes, 115059 No

Platte: 59.15% No
Clay: 60.355 No
Jackson: 59.38% No

I'm intrigued Platte was more for the plan than Jackson.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by DaveKCMO »

several have reported to me that people other than chastain are collecting signatures for his latest "streetcar expansion" petition. while others may be doing the collecting, the only streetcar effort requiring signatures belongs to clay chastain.
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Re: Clay Chastain coming back with light rail

Post by JBmidtown »

Ok at this point he's clearly just being vindictive and trying to spread chaos and disinformation.
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