Proposed reduction in KCATA service

[dangerboy]

Overall the ATA is doing a decent job considering their meager (and declining) resources. You can't blame them for the fact that the citizens of the region aren't providing enough resources to run the system.

In the short term the current cities that use ATA services (KCMO, Wyco, Independence, etc). need to find the resources to adequately fund the system, while continuing to focus on improving the efficiency. In the longer term we need to convince Joco to rejoin the regional system. They already sit on the board, and the current County Executive has expressed support for rejoining the ATA.

[KCPowercat]

when we say shut it down, obviously we don't think there should be no system at all....but there are ways to phase out the ATA, disband them, bring in a new agency and start them up all w/o losing all transit.

[mean]

People in metro who drive: ~2 million
People in metro who take transit: ~30,000

I am a perfectly compassionate human being, but I am indeed saying shut it down, completely. It's not like there aren't friends or relatives with cars, not to mention several taxi companies, to help out those who truly need rides. The blind and the old and the poor might be disadvantaged, but they aren't so stupid and helpless that they'd all have to quit their jobs and stay home 24/7 if the ATA died. Which is not to say it'd be easy on those who rely on transit, but hey...transit isn't welfare, k? It's a city service, and it is one that is failing to serve in an acceptable manner. Kill it. If we treat it like welfare, it becomes welfare, and everybody loses. Kill it now, all at once (after a period of fair warning) rather than slowly strangling it to death over the course of several agonizing, money-blowing decades of service cuts and widespread public apathy.

[tat2kc]

As a mobilty specialist who works with blind children, I teach them to ride the bus. The biggest barrier to gainful emplyment is the ability to travel safely and independently. Public transportation is, for many, the only option for transportation to work or school. Believe me when I say family/friends/taxis is not a viable option for many. A coworker of mine who is blind, and her husband, also blind, have to use a cab to get to work each day. The bus would take, at mininmum, 90 minutes to 2 hours. At some times of the day, it does not even run for them. The cab costs them over $25 a day to get to work. Because they are professional, their job allows them the ability to pay this amount. Most people who are disabled are very much underemployed, and are not in the postion to afford this. One of my other coworkers is a recent college grad, also blind. She makes a little less than 30,000 a year. She uses the disabiliy transit for work. It would impossible for her to pay for a cab. The public transit system in any city does not makes ends meet on the money collected through fares. It is always supplemented by other revenue.

It is not practical in any way to assume that something will pick up the slack for persons who cannot drive and would not have access to pulbic transportation. No its not welfare, but it is a valuable city service that is poorly managed and drastically underfunded. Kansas City won't fund a viable public transportation option until the air quality gets bad enough for federal intervention, or until the freeways are at a standstill.

[dangerboy]

Mean, I hope that you never eat fast food, work in an office, send children to public schools, utilize public libraries, stay in a motel, or get a drivers license - because many of the people that work in low wage jobs to provide you with these kinds services rely on the bus to get them to work.

Telling them to "get a ride" is bullshit.

Are you prepared to:

Shell out more income tax to pay the welfare and social security costs for people that suddenly lose their only transportion option.

Pay the cost of more environmental damage when people who choose transit are forced back into their cars?

Pay higher earnings taxes to support the subsidies that will surely be spent to house more cars in Downtown and Midtown garages?

[mean]

The numbers tell us that very few people rely on the bus...underemployed, disabled, or otherwise. Continuing to spend millions of dollars on a bus system for 1% of the population is what is bullshit, and just because the rest of America doesn't have a problem subsidizing transit for infinity doesn't mean it's the only way.

It would be cheaper to buy Vespas for every regular transit rider in the ATA's system than to run buses for just a few years. Let's give everyone fair warning and shut the whole cancerous operation down, giving the ATA's role over to a more privatized and accountable, not to mention regionally representative corporation. If this were to happen, the city could have the beginnings of a new system in just a couple years.

The only obvious problem is that some people could be without transportation during the intervening period, but this it's not like that's an insurmountable obstacle. The number of people we need to move is very low, and despite protestations to the contrary, I firmly believe that some of these people do in fact have friends and family they can turn to -- carpool with people at work, call 842-RIDE, whatever. I'd suggest the city start taking bids from cab companies, and use part of the former ATA's budget to partially subsidize rides for those in need when there are no alternatives. If that doesn't work for you, feel free to think of something else. Contract a few critical routes to The Jo for a year or two, maybe. What else? We don't need the ATA for any of it.

[bahua]

Well, what is the current deal with cab companies? I never take cabs, because of how much they cost, yet I see poor people getting in and out of them(particularly at the grocery store) all the time.

That said, I would love to see a non-municipal body try to make an inroad into regional transit.

[stmdqmw]

The reason some poor people take a cab back from the grocery store is they proably have too many bags to carry on the bus or to walk home with. Not everyone is able to drive because of various reasons which makes public transportation essential to a strong transportation infastructure by making the air cleaner with fewer cars on the road and less congestion.

[bahua]

http://kcata.org/2004Plan_701.html

I'm bummed, but I guess it'd be better to phase it out than to just remove it altogether. Thoughts?

[KCPowercat]

I can't believe they are removing the Chiefs express....there is no way that doesn't make them money, that thing is always packed.

Don't like to see service reductions but cutting down weekend nights isn't so bad.

[Brooksider]

I live on a bus route and see a lot of riders on weekends and evenings. The hardest hit will be those who work evenings and weekends who depend on buses to get to work.

[dangerboy]

I can't believe they are removing the Chiefs express....there is no way that doesn't make them money, that thing is always packed.

I'm speculating it is at least partly a strategy to get the attention of more people who might not otherwise care about or notice the crisis in transit funding.

[carfreekc]

I can't believe they are removing the Chiefs express....there is no way that doesn't make them money, that thing is always packed.

I'm speculating it is at least partly a strategy to get the attention of more people who might not otherwise care about or notice the crisis in transit funding.

The Chiefs and Royals Express routes are special events shuttle service, not regular transit routes. (You can't get them to the stadiums when there are no games.) When it gets to the point that funding is so tight they propose eliminating all regular Sunday bus service and slashing other service, I don't think it's a strategy to also propose eliminating the special shuttle service; it makes sense. (Of course, if they didn't propose eliminating the stadium service, they'd be getting grief for that, too, either way.)

I'd love to have more special event shuttles, and they can be a good way to ease people into the idea of riding the bus more--but in a choice between eliminating routes people use to get to work every week and special event shuttles, the event shuttles go out the window.

I would ask the ATA what the farebox recovery is for the Chiefs Express before saying "there is no way that doesn't make them money." Extraordinarily few transit routes are self-supporting. Also, bus drivers have told me before that with the stadium expresses, the drivers stay at the stadiums until the games are over, and I would guess that means they get paid that whole time.

Of course, if everyone would just vote yes for the 3/8-cent sales tax that the City Council decided today to put on the November ballot, we won't have to worry about the proposed cuts.

[kcteen]

Yeah... about that 3/8 cents tax increase.

Seems like a big hike just to keep the mediocre (sp) status quo, doesnt it?


I vote dissasemble the KCATA and start over. And while these cuts are indeed very, very devastaing for many that work and live in the urban core and depend on these routes...something has to shock the public into realizing that we have a lack of reliable transit alternatives to the car here in KC...

KcTeen

[dangerboy]

Dismantling the current system before we have a replacement is ludicrous. The 3/8th tax is really just a stop-gap to save the current system until the entire metro has a chance to vote on the Smart Moves plan to provide a regional system with busses, rapid busses, and commuter rail. Since that plan involves bi-state cooperation it will take a couple of years to get legislation passed in both states, and we need to do something right away to tide us over until then.

[carfreekc]

Yeah... about that 3/8 cents tax increase.

Seems like a big hike just to keep the mediocre (sp) status quo, doesnt it?


I vote dissasemble the KCATA and start over. And while these cuts are indeed very, very devastaing for many that work and live in the urban core and depend on these routes...something has to shock the public into realizing that we have a lack of reliable transit alternatives to the car here in KC...

KcTeen

That amount would allow the ATA to make some (as of yet unspecified) improvements, too. Y'all could get more Chiefs Express buses. Or the additional amount over the shortfall could be used for BRT, I imagine.

I can see it both ways on the amount of the tax. It's bigger than they need for the shortfall, so it undercuts the fact that it's of an emergency nature. But then there will be people who won't even consider it if it doesn't *improve* something instead of merely maintain something. (Especially north of the river...)

In an ideal world, we'd be voting on a regional tax. In an ideal world, all of the votes would have been counted in Florida and all of the eligible voters would have been allowed to vote in Florida, too.

It's convenient for people to say that "something has to shock the public" if you don't depend on the transit. Even though I don't have a car and rely on the bus, I recognize that it's by choice. I'm lucky enough to be in a situation where I can make different choices in where I live and work etc to make that a more attractive alternative for me.

Not everyone on the bus is in that position, and I don't think they should have to pay the price for everyone else sticking their heads in the sand. The people who need shocking aren't going to "get it" to be shocked if a woman can't get to work at a nursing home on Wornall for her Saturday shift because her bus route was cut completely that day. The people who bitch now about the Target at Ward Pkwy not being a SuperTarget won't care if a guy can't get to his night job stocking shelves there.

If you want to shock the people who need shocking: make them start paying for all of their "free" (i.e., subsidized) parking. Allow the gas tax to keep up with inflation. Quit widening roads. Allow traffic to suck.

There are a lot of other ways to shock people into realizing how sorely we lack transportation choices other than to do it on the backs of people who, for various reasons, don't have the choice to drive.

[carfreekc]

Well I guess dangerboy hit "Submit" right before I did....yeah, what he said in fewer words than I did.

[bahua]

Don't widen roads, put up tollstops on the major highways, get rid of the mandatory off-street parking requirement of most businesses, tax land, eliminate municipal tax on labor/property.

These things will:

-Increase property values
-Increase the urban(and suburban) population
-Increase employment/education/culture/nightlife/dining opportunity
-Make it a pain in the butt to drive around town

and...

-Pave the way for a reliable public transit system that everyone will use.

[kcteen]

It true there are other ways to "shock" people, my comments may have come off rather harsh. But, I am still deep-down for dismantling the KCATA.

However, I will first say that even though I loathe the KCATA and the current "situation" in KC public transit, don't get me wrong here. If I had the chance, I would vote for ANY tax increase. I live in Kansas, unfortunetly, so I dont get that chance, but If I saw even three tax increase proposals on any ballot I would vote for them all. I would vote for anything that gave more money to our dire transit situtation.

But, the KCATA has had its day. It has "succeeded" in providing a below-par (of course, this is all my opinion. No-one out there take it personal, please) bus service for a city our size (lets talk just missouri here). These inadequalities are not necessarily through KCATA's own faults...much, i believe, stems from our wonderfully non-transit friendly population and city hall.

I think the 3/8 cent is just as dangerboy said, a "stop-gap" or temporary solution. That's kindof what ticked me off about it. You see, I (of course, this is an ideal world) would rather see a SOLUTION...or at least a better effor than pretty-much just "paving us over" until some other plan gets on the ballot.

I would love to see smart moves passed, I would love to see Clay Chastain's proposals past, I would love to see improved tranist...period. But not with the KCATA.

This tax-increase thing got me thinking about something else. Another vent: I heard recently from a kansas city local that Kansas City has "a third world transit system."

Needless to say, this comment upset me.

You see, I've lived in two third world countries, one for a considerable amount of time growing up.

Trust me "Third World" Transit is much better, at least in all of south america, than what this city has to offer. We are not even at the "Third World" level.

And, without getting into many details, this is what it has to do with this thread: Where I lived, the ATA had the power to raise its own tax increases, whenever it wanted...period. No voting, except to perform the equivilent of a "recall" if people didn't like it but that never happened. That's something to think about. I've heard other cities in the US have granted similar control over taxes to their ATAs...with some limits I'm sure... To me, of course in an ideal world, I wouldn't mind having a regional transit authority that could raise their own taxes like this. But I guess one thing at a time...

KcTeen

[dangerboy]

However, I will first say that even though I loathe the KCATA and the current "situation" in KC public transit, don't get me wrong here. If I had the chance, I would vote for ANY tax increase. I live in Kansas, unfortunetly, so I dont get that chance

You aren't shut out at all, you can certainly lobby your elected officials in Kansas to participate in creating a regional transit system with a regional funding source. They need to hear more constituents demanding participation and cooperation in regional issues like transportation. Smart Moves will require legislation in both the Missouri General Assembly and the Kansas Legislature, as well as votes in the individual counties. There are many opportunities to participate.