Main Street MAX

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby KCPowercat » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:02 am

This is premature I know but has there been any thoughts around where the main Street max goes south of crown center once the streetcar expansion starts operation?

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby shinatoo » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:10 am

KCPowercat wrote:This is premature I know but has there been any thoughts around where the main Street max goes south of crown center once the streetcar expansion starts operation?


I would think you would still need it on Main just to deal with capacity issues. But if moving, I would assume it would hop over to Broadway south of Union Station.
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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:23 am

It will not stay. A few schools of thought for the $5 million in annual operations that go to Main Street MAX:

- Move to Independence (MAX upgrade study starts this year)
- Move to Broadway (ridership in his corridor has been problematic, and IMO is now in a "death spiral")
- Distribtute to other MAX or high ridership routes that could actually attract more ridership

There will be some service south of UMKC, for sure, but haven't heard anyone talk about what it would be. Have to offer connections to 63rd & 75th. Maybe the 57 goes to UMKC (instead of Plaza) and gets a boost?

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby earthling » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:32 am

That is sad if the case. The streetcar will be great for TOD but there needs to be some form of Express line through Midtown that doesn't have as many MAX stops as today. Streetcar is great for local service and visitors but will be slow end to end.

Any express bus route from Waldo to downtown via Main (or Broadway) would do that hits some but fewer streetcar stops to make it more Express. Doesn't have to be MAX branded. Maybe Midtown will dense up enough by the time streetcar opens, justifying an Express overlay.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:36 am

The 51x still exists for that limited use case.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby earthling » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:40 am

But that's Ward Parkway/SW Tfway. Main or Broadway connecting Bside/Wornall needs an express too if MAX goes away.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:51 am

You'll have to make the case that the ridership on something like that would be greater than the other investments.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby earthling » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:05 am

Maybe will have to wait for the dust to settle when streetcar line expands before readjusting other lines. If there is zero bus service down Main/Midtown, would think existing Broadway line would then pickup for those who already use bus and have a bus pass. Streetcar will be notably slower than Broadway line for longer hauls even if BWY not Express. If BWY usage picks up, an optimization of some form that complements streetcar line may have a case.

The streetcar is great for local service, TOD and timid transit riders, it's not always great for existing bus riders/commuters needing to get from A to B ASAP for longer hauls, like to work.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:14 am

You assume the streetcar implementation will be be same in Midtown as it is downtown. That is not assured.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby earthling » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:17 am

Like I said, sounds like we'll have to wait for dust to settle when it expands. Not optimistic streetcar will be an upgrade for longer haul commuters, more likely to be a downgrade. We'll see when plans finalize.

The advantage goes to streetcar proponents for not having more detailed plan and publicly stating impact to MAX before going to vote. Existing bus riders may not support it if they view as a downgrade for daily commute.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby KCPowercat » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:40 am

Any thoughts on it going down gillham?

I like the Independence Ave idea.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby GRID » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:46 am

Getting rid of MAX between downtown and UMKC (regardless of route) sure sounds like a bad idea. That's like taking two steps forward with the streetcar, but then taking about 1.5 steps back. KC needs high frequency, faster service of max buses to compliment the streetcars and add capacity when needed. And what about more local service for those between the streetcar stops? The N/S linear aliment of KCMO should have multiple transit options plus dedicated bike lanes the entire length of the corridor.

earthling seems to know the deal.

I guess it depends on what type of infrastructure the streetcars run south of union station, but no matter what, I don't see how you get around having some type of bus service in the same corridor to fill in the gaps and provide more efficient transit for longer trips.

It would be like pulling the X2 off the DC Streetcar route. They serve different purposes and co-exist. As you see in this video, the X2 is much faster for longer trips.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sANV2S-EGdU

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby KCPowercat » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:10 am

Maybe moving it isn't the right answer....just wondering if options have been considered given we are moving the max off main downtown.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:23 am

The X2 v DC streetcar comparison is flawed. The X2 goes way further than the initial streetcar segment and runs more frequently than the streetcar. Main Street MAX is not particularly useful south of Plaza, with headways no higher than 20 min during weekday peaks. Streetcar will run more frequently than MAX every day of the week and at all times.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby flyingember » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:11 pm

There's three ways to speed up the streetcar, that can be mixed and matches

1. true signal priority. Imagine the train triggering something at the UMKC stop and all lights turn red at Volker except for the train. Just one time saving there could be significant.

2. dedicated lanes (ex Pershing to 31st is 25% the length of the extension and would be an east place) with U-turn cycles independent of the train light cycle

3. stops that reach two places with one stop. Think block long in the middle of the street with entrances on both ends. 39th to Westport Rd is a good example where this could work.

It doesn't need to be a fully separated light rail system for little things to help. When the train can clear a block in 5 seconds, cutting a 10 second wait at a light or being able to go full speed up a hill with no worries about cars changing lanes has a huge impact if done enough times. The same number of trains gaining just a minute per loop adds up to more total trips over the course of a day and of course this means more total capacity.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby pash » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:15 pm

.
Last edited by pash on Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby KCPowercat » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:29 pm

I'm listening to all sides on this one...my first thought was using streetcar and MAX on the same street is duplicative. We don't have a huge transit budget at this point so any chance to move a frequent service to another location should be taken advantage of.....but I very well maybe misguided.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby beautyfromashes » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:40 pm

I'd love to see a major change and develop a Max line that runs east-west. If we want to see our city expand east and erase the Troost barrier, we have to break the orientation of just moving people from downtown to the largely white, first ring suburbs to the south. Having rapid bus transit instead of just traditional bus lines could help with this. This could be 39th street, Armour or 31st.

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby GRID » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:53 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:The X2 v DC streetcar comparison is flawed. The X2 goes way further than the initial streetcar segment and runs more frequently than the streetcar. Main Street MAX is not particularly useful south of Plaza, with headways no higher than 20 min during weekday peaks. Streetcar will run more frequently than MAX every day of the week and at all times.


I don't think it's quite that simple. You are a transit nerd and I think you know that MAX should remain in place and co-exist with the Streetcar. This would leave the urban corridor of KCMO without high quality bus service and force everybody onto the streetcars which are terribly slow for trips longer than a mile. Not to mention, you are basically making the corridor less transit friendly by not only taking away an express rout, but reducing the number of places to use transit. I don't see it working all that well, but I hope it does.

Here is a link about the DC streetcar and the bus lines and how independent they are of each other. I understand DC is a different animal, but there are a lot of things similar about this situation as well. Why not run the Main St Max into NKC till the streetcar can be expanded and start getting more commuters on that route? The DC streetcar is nowhere near as popular as the KC Streetcar. People in DC don't drive downtown just to ride a streetcar like they do in KC ;). But once it's extended, it will be more popular. It will always be for local short trips though. It's just too slow.

https://ggwash.org/view/61704/dc-street ... re-riding-

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Re: Main Street MAX

Postby KCPowercat » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:02 pm

Moving the MAX to broadway or Gillham would not "leave the urban core...without high quality bus service"...not to mention the Troost MAX is already there serving the urban core.

Secondly adding the streetcar to midtown would make that corridor much more transit friendly....it wouldn't be any less "express" than the main max stops are now is my guess.


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