KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by KCPowercat » Thu May 31, 2018 7:10 pm

Airline business models can't be discussed? Reasons they make decisions based on the result of one flight going to ....Iceland? Come on...there is no way that's confidential and unknown to people with knowledge of the industry. (Clearly not me)

Welp Iceland didn't do well so forget that flight to Frankfurt that has 200 kci fliers going there per day....that not a sane business reasoning.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings » Thu May 31, 2018 7:30 pm

Icelandair’s business model is connecting passengers between Europe and North America. The other airlines are looking to see if we are able to sustain the flight to Iceland,because really it’s targeted to and filled by people travelling to Europe. And unlike WOW in STL, Icelandair is a lot more targeted to less price sensitive and/or business passengers. Sort of the same ones the “watching carriers” would go after. I will admit it’s not like a perfect overlap, but I would say Icelandair is 100% not an ULCC.

The standard procedure across the country is attract 1 carrier with seasonal and/or non daily and or ULCC TATL service. Then try to fill those seats/build demand in order to attract greater frequencies and more carriers.

Also, do remember that KC is competing for big/legacy carriers with cities that have less/similar traveler numbers but a lot more incentive money. This means it’s also a “hey KC has 200 travelers a day, but STL has 190 and $6million.” So yes, this issue is a bit more complicated that just straight pax. But if we can grow our pax numbers(take flights on Icelandair), it makes us look a lot better to those bigger airlines. Then it’s like “hey STL has 190 pax a day and $6million but KC has 300 a day so that’s more profitable overall”.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by WoodDraw » Thu May 31, 2018 7:55 pm

British airways should be our target, but I don't think they'll come until a new terminal.

I hope Icelandair does great! But when you're a connecting airline trying to promote tourism, you have to win on price. And build a new terminal please.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings » Thu May 31, 2018 8:03 pm

WoodDraw wrote:British airways should be our target, but I don't think they'll come until a new terminal.

I hope Icelandair does great! But when you're a connecting airline trying to promote tourism, you have to win on price. And build a new terminal please.
We are getting ‘er built! BA and KLM are both ramping up TATL services. I think BA is shooting for 6% capacity growth this this year and KLM 4%. Condor is expanding a lot as well. Indianapolis got Delta, but only after a lot of incentives including state ones so I doubt that we would get anything from them or any other US carriers. Additionally, I think American is using BA as its connector to Europe.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by WoodDraw » Thu May 31, 2018 8:22 pm

ldai_phs wrote:
WoodDraw wrote:British airways should be our target, but I don't think they'll come until a new terminal.

I hope Icelandair does great! But when you're a connecting airline trying to promote tourism, you have to win on price. And build a new terminal please.
We are getting ‘er built! BA and KLM are both ramping up TATL services. I think BA is shooting for 6% capacity growth this this year and KLM 4%. Condor is expanding a lot as well. Indianapolis got Delta, but only after a lot of incentives including state ones so I doubt that we would get anything from them or any other US carriers. Additionally, I think American is using BA as its connector to Europe.
I was referring to Iceland for the new terminal. :P The airport just isn't a great experience, but we can relate here that it takes time.

That's interesting about TATL and American using BA. I've long thought they were our best shot at getting regular TATL service, but I'm not privy to any of the data.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings » Thu May 31, 2018 8:28 pm

BA has shown that they are highly influenced by incentives. They picked Nashville over STL strictly due to incentives last year(or so I’m told). STL has a lot more incentives than us currently available so I see them picking STL over KC. Unless of course we show a big increase in daily pax or such. It is interesting to note that a KC BA Flight would use gates next to the American Airlines gates(BA’s partner) in Termjnal C. Unlike STL, I don’t see KC getting BA soon. KLM or something German would be my bet.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by KCPowercat » Thu May 31, 2018 8:50 pm

ldai_phs wrote:Icelandair’s business model is connecting passengers between Europe and North America. The other airlines are looking to see if we are able to sustain the flight to Iceland,because really it’s targeted to and filled by people travelling to Europe. And unlike WOW in STL, Icelandair is a lot more targeted to less price sensitive and/or business passengers. Sort of the same ones the “watching carriers” would go after. I will admit it’s not like a perfect overlap, but I would say Icelandair is 100% not an ULCC.

The standard procedure across the country is attract 1 carrier with seasonal and/or non daily and or ULCC TATL service. Then try to fill those seats/build demand in order to attract greater frequencies and more carriers.

Also, do remember that KC is competing for big/legacy carriers with cities that have less/similar traveler numbers but a lot more incentive money. This means it’s also a “hey KC has 200 travelers a day, but STL has 190 and $6million.” So yes, this issue is a bit more complicated that just straight pax. But if we can grow our pax numbers(take flights on Icelandair), it makes us look a lot better to those bigger airlines. Then it’s like “hey STL has 190 pax a day and $6million but KC has 300 a day so that’s more profitable overall”.
thanks for the details and trying to teach us some of the details as to the why...it still doesn't make sense to me why the success or failure of this one flight...when they have the data showing the current demand there is to go to destinations. I guess I can get building additional demand now that fliers that weren't already planning to go to Europe can go to Iceland direct....

That said, onesie twosie people booking an Iceland air flight due to "come on guys we need to fill this or we'll not get another one" isn't going to change any sensible airline's mind as to where they put new directs....your comments on the last paragraph about the $$$ makes a lot more sense and I'm sure is a huge factor.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings » Thu May 31, 2018 9:07 pm

I hope this better helped to answer your questions. Let me know if you have any others and I will try to answer/explain.

I know the business community hasn’t been quick to book our new direct flights and that is a key demographic for carries like KLM,Lufthansa, or BA. And I know many of you travel for business or are very connected in the business world of KC.

I doubt KC can raise the funds needed to battle STL’s large $6-7million war chest by August(August/September is generally when carriers announce their TATL service for the next summer). Thus, increasing our pax counts and proving demand is the only way that we can compete with them.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by WoodDraw » Thu May 31, 2018 9:18 pm

Where does STL get its incentive money from? Excuse the dumb question, but I'm pretty ignorant here. Is it a tourism fund? Use fee?

I think the target for whoever handles this should be to launch the new terminal with a flagship route to Europe and Mexico. I'm glad they're trying now, but I'm mostly looking to the future. I'd rather spend our tourism/incentive money then.
Last edited by WoodDraw on Thu May 31, 2018 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by KCPowercat » Thu May 31, 2018 9:28 pm

Yeah I had the same question as to where they are getting this incentive funding.

I don't travel for business much but I know many who do...and if they are going overseas, they are going to be tied to their mileage partner first....like I said earlier it doesn't matter if the connection is ORD or it's KEF.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings » Thu May 31, 2018 9:37 pm

I think STL’s funds are mostly from their business community as well as waived fees and such. KC’s incentive package was also mostly from our business community. In Indianapolis, the city and state provided many millions in incentives. KC hasn’t and as far as I know does not plan on using tax payer funds. The KCAD marketing incentive for Icelandair was paid for by airport revenue.

Many TATL airlines are expanding rapidly NOW. This is a wave of expansion never seen before and likely to not be seen again for a while. So if we ever get a flight, it will be during this massive wave of expansion. TBH. 2022 likely won’t have the options and carrier interest that we are seeing right now.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by WoodDraw » Thu May 31, 2018 9:46 pm

Interesting. KC will always have a hard time finding out incentives because Kansas won't contribute and KC and STL will get in a pissing match at the state level and Springfield will want a flight to somewhere.

Have to rely on the business community.

I still think it will be a struggle to attract much before we have a true connecting airport, but I'm glad everyone is trying and building relationships. I'm going to take it this year and try it out.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings » Thu May 31, 2018 9:54 pm

Neither KC or STL is getting state incentives. IMHO is better that way. I’d rather see an equal 0 than either 1. An unfair split or 2. Rural voters/reps using it to take away something else from the cities.


Yea. These relationships have been been worked on for over 9 years at this point. Time truly does fly. It is now that we are really getting the interest of carriers. Do recall that we have way more than enough PAX from KCI to completely fill a 787 each way daily to Europe. Also recall that Airlines shoot for like 80%+avg occupancy. Even though our pax numbers are good, the big airlines don’t want to take the plunge without a.seeing someone else succeed first b. A lot of incentives c. A combination of both
Last edited by normalthings on Thu May 31, 2018 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by WoodDraw » Thu May 31, 2018 10:02 pm

ldai_phs wrote:Neither KC or STL is getting state incentives. IMHO is better that way. I’d rather see an equal 0 than either 1. An unfair split or 2. Rural voters/reps using it to take away something else from the cities.


Yea. These relationships have been being worked on for over 9 years at this point. Time truly does fly. It is now that we are really getting the interest of carriers. Do recall that we have way more than enough PAX from KCI to completely fill a 787 each way daily to Europe. Also recall that Airlines shoot for like 80%+avg occupancy.
So I heard from someone that I mostly trust that BA was actively looking at KC, but considered it a logistical nightmare for the low amount of people it would actually serve. Just shitty infrastructure that they'd rather use other close airports and let American deal with kci.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings » Thu May 31, 2018 10:06 pm

WoodDraw wrote:
ldai_phs wrote:Neither KC or STL is getting state incentives. IMHO is better that way. I’d rather see an equal 0 than either 1. An unfair split or 2. Rural voters/reps using it to take away something else from the cities.


Yea. These relationships have been being worked on for over 9 years at this point. Time truly does fly. It is now that we are really getting the interest of carriers. Do recall that we have way more than enough PAX from KCI to completely fill a 787 each way daily to Europe. Also recall that Airlines shoot for like 80%+avg occupancy.
So I heard from someone that I mostly trust that BA was actively looking at KC, but considered it a logistical nightmare for the low amount of people it would actually serve. Just shitty infrastructure that they'd rather use other close airports and let American deal with kci.
The infrastructure is bad but it has been improved quite a bit with the big renovation that was completed this week. Again, I see BA at STL and us getting someone else.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by GRID » Thu May 31, 2018 10:16 pm

For the record, BA is getting some pretty significant incentives to fly out of BWI where you have a pretty large market to pull from.

https://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/n ... ar-to.html

It would take a pretty serious commitment from the business community of KC to get them to go there. You never know though. Maybe some cool things will happen with the new terminal.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings » Thu May 31, 2018 10:22 pm

Yea. Out of all the big carriers, BA seems to be the most swayed by incentives. I have heard we would need at least $6-7million at current pax levels.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by WoodDraw » Thu May 31, 2018 10:23 pm

GRID wrote:For the record, BA is getting some pretty significant incentives to fly out of BWI where you have a pretty large market to pull from.

https://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/n ... ar-to.html

It would take a pretty serious commitment from the business community of KC to get them to go there. You never know though. Maybe some cool things will happen with the new terminal.
How much of that market flys out of DC though? Or all the other east coast airports.

I'm not sure that is a perfect comparison.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by beautyfromashes » Thu May 31, 2018 10:25 pm

I’d rather have a mainland airport than London. Give me AMS, CDG any day as the rail connections would be much better to other destinations. Perhaps international business travelers would think differently.

On incentives: it seems that other cities in the region would have a large benefit to an MCI TATL flight too. I guess it’s fantasy to expect KS or even Omaha to pitch in to attract a carrier. Thanks for all the information though. Definitely helps to understand what we’re up against. Our business community is so small and weak for our city size so if that’s a main factor, could be an uphill battle.

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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings » Thu May 31, 2018 10:27 pm

It’s not an exact comparison. KC has a massive catchment area unlike BWI. The article does help to demonstrate that KC is competing with big money in the quest for BA flights.

In other news, I think a continental Europe flight is much more likely. Also, I want to see mexico.

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