We need a new airport!!!

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KCPowercat
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:46 pm

Southwest can easily move from STL to MCI in 2021 they have no ties there....it's just silly to claim otherwise or fret over it now.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby Highlander » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:49 pm

Now that the single terminal has passed, I am looking at a map of KCI in Google Maps and wondering how they will be able to construct the terminal while keeping operations going seamlessly. It just doesn't look like there is enough space unless they encroach upon KCI logistical support off Paris and Bogota Streets or impinge on the circular approach road that services the terminal. It looks like aircraft departing from Terminal B will have to take a longer route to the main N-S runway with construction going on just to the north.

Has a map been provided showing how new the terminal will fit onto the existing KCI plan? It's difficult to envision.

Also, from Google Maps, there is what appears to be a construction project just east of the terminal complex presently going on - anybody know what that is?

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby WSPanic » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:22 pm

Highlander wrote:Now that the single terminal has passed, I am looking at a map of KCI in Google Maps and wondering how they will be able to construct the terminal while keeping operations going seamlessly. It just doesn't look like there is enough space unless they encroach upon KCI logistical support off Paris and Bogota Streets or impinge on the circular approach road that services the terminal. It looks like aircraft departing from Terminal B will have to take a longer route to the main N-S runway with construction going on just to the north.

Has a map been provided showing how new the terminal will fit onto the existing KCI plan? It's difficult to envision.

Also, from Google Maps, there is what appears to be a construction project just east of the terminal complex presently going on - anybody know what that is?


Don't know how accurate this is - from April 2016. But halfway down this article they have a new single terminal structure as an overlay on the existing map.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article73988477.html

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby GRID » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:23 pm

Good post STLguy1, but I do think it's just a bit biased toward StL. I have always thought that KC sort of "missed the boat" by letting the terminal situation drag out so long. Had MCI built a new terminal 10-15 years ago, I really do think that MCI would be a large focus city for Southwest today and during that time, the airline has pretty much moved on from KC and built up major focus cities in Denver, St Louis and few other cites all taking flights that could have gone to KC.

Regardless, I think that KCI still needs a new terminal even if no new flights are added, but if I were StL, I would be at least a little concerned.

Southwest has not really spent of a lot of cash in StL. A few million bucks is basically nothing. So they don't really have a huge vested in interested in staying if something better comes along. While I'm sure there are some nice things about having a whole terminal to yourself, I don't see it as as major problem. SW has two terminals at BWI that share a major concourse, but they easily work with other airlines in terminal C when the gates are full etc. If anything, I would think it would give them a bit more flexibility for gate availability etc which will help them keep flights on time and passengers happy.

SW basically runs the show at MCI and they will be the primary input from the airlines for the new terminal. Basically, the new terminal will be designed just how SW wants and I actually see them liking it as much ore more than having their own renovated terminal in an airport like StL. SW Is a part of the design and funding process from the ground up. MCI will be every bit of what they want from an airport.

You are underestimating the size of the KC market. While the STL metro is larger, the market area is not that much larger. It might even be smaller.
The CMSA of KC is 2.5 million and the CMSA of StL is 2.9 million. That's only 400k difference and Topeka is very much a part of the MCI market area. So Topeka alone brings the MCI market area up to about the same as StL. So really the local KC/Topeka region of 2.8 million vs the StL region of 2.9 million. Not much of a difference. Not to mention that KC is growing about twice as fast as StL.

Here is where I think the MCI market can really threaten STL. MCI has a much larger potential market as far as geography. You drive a couple of hours from STL and you are quickly in range of another major international airport territory. People in the rural areas around STL can go to Indy or Memphis or Nashville or Louisville or Chicago or KC. On the other hand, MCI is by far the largest airport serving a huge area that includes many small metros like Omaha, Wichita etc. People in Manhattan, KS or even Lincoln, NE don't have too many other options. If MCI has a more comfortable terminal it will be more attractive to people that live in Omaha or Wichita or Springfield to make the drive to MCI for a nonstop. Right now MCI is not fun for those types of travelers that have to get to their airport very early and need restaurants etc. Or KCI could be a focus hub for this region with a lot more commuter flights from Omaha, Little Rock, Wichita, Tulsa, Des Moines, Springfield etc where can make a quick connection to their final destination. Again, this is not really an option at the current terminal. Nobody wants to connect through MCI right now.

So while I do think MCI may have missed the boat, I'm not so sure the boat can't still come back to MCI and StL would likely take the biggest hit if it did.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby Highlander » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:50 pm

WSPanic wrote:
Highlander wrote:Now that the single terminal has passed, I am looking at a map of KCI in Google Maps and wondering how they will be able to construct the terminal while keeping operations going seamlessly. It just doesn't look like there is enough space unless they encroach upon KCI logistical support off Paris and Bogota Streets or impinge on the circular approach road that services the terminal. It looks like aircraft departing from Terminal B will have to take a longer route to the main N-S runway with construction going on just to the north.

Has a map been provided showing how new the terminal will fit onto the existing KCI plan? It's difficult to envision.

Also, from Google Maps, there is what appears to be a construction project just east of the terminal complex presently going on - anybody know what that is?


Don't know how accurate this is - from April 2016. But halfway down this article they have a new single terminal structure as an overlay on the existing map.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article73988477.html


Thanks. Surprise I missed that. I thought I'd read everything pretty thoroughly. So, there would be detours in the taxi routes for the aircraft and parking construction would indeed encroach on the circular road if that is an accurate drawing. That also will compress the area in which planes have to operate around the gate. Could be some operational issues. But there's plenty of room for new terminals should air traffic ever dictate we need it.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby Highlander » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:54 pm

GRID wrote:ry bit of what they want from an airport.

You are underestimating the size of the KC market. While the STL metro is larger, the market area is not that much larger. It might even be smaller.
The CMSA of KC is 2.5 million and the CMSA of StL is 2.9 million. That's only 400k difference and Topeka is very much a part of the MCI market area. So Topeka alone brings the MCI market area up to about the same as StL. So really the local KC/Topeka region of 2.8 million vs the StL region of 2.9 million. Not much of a difference. Not to mention that KC is growing about twice as fast as StL.

Here is where I think the MCI market can really threaten STL. MCI has a much larger potential market as far as geography. You drive a couple of hours from STL and you are quickly in range of another major international airport territory. People in the rural areas around STL can go to Indy or Memphis or Nashville or Louisville or Chicago or KC. On the other hand, MCI is by far the largest airport serving a huge area that includes many small metros like Omaha, Wichita etc. People in Manhattan, KS or even Lincoln, NE don't have too many other options. If MCI has a more comfortable terminal it will be more attractive to people that live in Omaha or Wichita or Springfield to make the drive to MCI for a nonstop. Right now MCI is not fun for those types of travelers that have to get to their airport very early and need restaurants etc. Or KCI could be a focus hub for this region with a lot more commuter flights from Omaha, Little Rock, Wichita, Tulsa, Des Moines, Springfield etc where can make a quick connection to their final destination. Again, this is not really an option at the current terminal. Nobody wants to connect through MCI right now.

So while I do think MCI may have missed the boat, I'm not so sure the boat can't still come back to MCI and StL would likely take the biggest hit if it did.


I was thinking the same thing. Two metro areas directly to the west with well over 100,000 people easily within an hours drive of KCI and St Joseph to the north. Also, I know Wichita people that frequently use KCI. KC doesn't have the business drivers, however, that St Louis has but we do have but I suspect Cerner and Garmin alone generate quite a bit of international traffic.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby earthling » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:21 pm

Even though KC doesn't have a lot of large corporations based in KC, there are a lot of large corporations that have a KC presence. And it looks like KC is safe with Sprint jobs for now that could start to return. Cerner plans to add another 10K+ jobs.

KC is growing at a good pace in Pro Biz services, nearly 200K employees, almost 40K gain since 2010, almost 10K in the last year...
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/SMU2928 ... raphs=true

STL is about 216K Pro Biz and not growing as much, under 30K gain since 2010, about 5K in the last year....
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/SMU2941 ... raphs=true

KC also not far behind in Financial Services jobs at about 81K vs 89K in STL. KC did take a big hit in Information jobs due to Sprint but that could return.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby STLguy1 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:02 pm

This is funny stuff. Some strange calculating and to think SWA has no ties to STL. [-X :shock: :roll:

Just happy we are getting a new airport. I won't hold my breath for 2021. When this old cornfield cement disaster is dug up there are going to be some major environmental concerns and delays. But let's shoot for the earlier. I figure 2023.

By that time SWA will be so ramped up that more in their major player cities now... we will see.

I'm sure we will get new O&D service. But I think crappy Spirit and Allegiant will be more than SWA to be honest. If you haven't been through SWA's new upgraded and expanded T2 and E Concourse lately... you have no clue what type of commitments and "ties"they have there. It's really amazing IMO as I connect there almost every week at this point. I would love to see service increases here than connections (which fuel growth numbers by large). SWA has their own terminal and concourse in STL. They are highly invested and very nice IMO. Just give me more frequency in MCI. however by 2023 I may be retired I hope. :P

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby normalthings » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:50 pm

STLguy1 wrote:This is funny stuff. Some strange calculating and to think SWA has no ties to STL. [-X :shock: :roll:

Just happy we are getting a new airport. I won't hold my breath for 2021. When this old cornfield cement disaster is dug up there are going to be some major environmental concerns and delays. But let's shoot for the earlier. I figure 2023.

By that time SWA will be so ramped up that more in their major player cities now... we will see.

I'm sure we will get new O&D service. But I think crappy Spirit and Allegiant will be more than SWA to be honest. If you haven't been through SWA's new upgraded and expanded T2 and E Concourse lately... you have no clue what type of commitments and "ties"they have there. It's really amazing IMO as I connect there almost every week at this point. I would love to see service increases here than connections (which fuel growth numbers by large). SWA has their own terminal and concourse in STL. They are highly invested and very nice IMO. Just give me more frequency in MCI. however by 2023 I may be retired I hope. :P


I have. STL's terminal 2 is pretty crowded and not wide at all. Concourse 2 is just about as narrow as our current KCI terminal is. Not optimal. You noted they have spent a couple million over the last 5 years. That's really not much all all. Terminal 2 is crowded and the only place for them to without building new buildings is even more crowded in. Unless they physically expand the terminal by building new buildings, I would not say they are tied to STL at all.

Update: I looked up what is actually happening at STL and I’d say SWA is Investing their a lot more han you’ve let on
Last edited by normalthings on Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby horizons82 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:06 pm

STLguy1 wrote:This is funny stuff. Some strange calculating and to think SWA has no ties to STL. [-X :shock: :roll:

Just happy we are getting a new airport. I won't hold my breath for 2021. When this old cornfield cement disaster is dug up there are going to be some major environmental concerns and delays. But let's shoot for the earlier. I figure 2023.


What makes you say that there's going to be environmental issues/delays? Much of the remediation that would be an issue should have already been addressed in the 2004 reno. Additionally, with no public in immediate vicinity of construction, there's a lot less containment that the GC would have to deal with.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:57 am

Let's please not do this. This was like a decade old debate that nobody in Kansas City cares to have about how many fortune 500/1000 companies are in each city.

We all love our older brother. Stl is a great city. We will just keep trying our best to be a real city over here.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby flyingember » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:23 am

KCPowercat wrote:Let's please not do this. This was like a decade old debate that nobody in Kansas City cares to have about how many fortune 500/1000 companies are in each city.

We all love our older brother. Stl is a great city. We will just keep trying our best to be a real city over here.

We both want to take flights from Denver and Chicago, not either taking from the other.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby flyingember » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:48 pm


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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby kboish » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:27 pm

Apparently one of the tax bill's floating around contains a provision that would eliminate
the funding mechanism they are planning to use for the new terminal construction.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby WoodDraw » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:53 pm

flyingember wrote:Design workshops announced

https://twitter.com/KCIEdgemoor/status/ ... 3421628419


Zero in Kansas is not a good sign. I hope they plan on including more of the region in this.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:56 pm

Kansas is free to show up to these meetings.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby normalthings » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:14 pm

WoodDraw wrote:
flyingember wrote:Design workshops announced

https://twitter.com/KCIEdgemoor/status/ ... 3421628419


Zero in Kansas is not a good sign. I hope they plan on including more of the region in this.

No. Why would they. It’s a Kansas City asset so citizens of KCMO are given priority thus they are only planning meetings 1 for every council district. Outsiders can attend if they’d like thi

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby WoodDraw » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:15 pm

You guys are a tough crowd. I don't see anything wrong with making it regional. Build good faith.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby flyingember » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:37 pm

WoodDraw wrote:You guys are a tough crowd. I don't see anything wrong with making it regional. Build good faith.

There should be plenty of KCMO resident meetings because the city tax covers the approach roads, the employees are city employees and it's a city facility.

But having some meetings outside KCMO would be smart.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby grovester » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:53 pm

WoodDraw wrote:You guys are a tough crowd. I don't see anything wrong with making it regional. Build good faith.


It's a civic endeavor and Kansas has not shown any interest in participating in the past, save for Union Station.

Send out a flyer telling them they are welcome, it's all they deserve.

Let them propose a regional authority with cash on the barrel.


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