We need a new airport!!!

Transportation topics in KC
StrangerThings
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby StrangerThings » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:52 pm

KCPowercat wrote:To your #2 point....the airport is funded the exact same way here...the reason we have to vote on it is the State of Missouri Hancock Amendment.


Thanks for this. I've always wondered why the hell the public even has a say considering it doesn't affect our taxes. Question though, "The Hancock Amendment limits the amount the General Assembly may raise taxes or fees through new legislation without a vote of the people." What fees or additional taxes would be on the table? I've always understood it as the only thing we would pay more of would be at the point of purchase when buying tickets?

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby WoodDraw » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:31 pm

Well the leadership has been horrible here. They're putting it to a vote even if they have private funding. I think the mo supreme Court also held that quasi governmental fees didn't count towards the Hancock act. But I could be wrong on that.

A complete lack of good leadership and governance here. They should all be embarrassed. At least they got their bonds to play with though.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby Highlander » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:38 pm

WoodDraw wrote:Well the leadership has been horrible here. They're putting it to a vote even if they have private funding. I think the mo supreme Court also held that quasi governmental fees didn't count towards the Hancock act. But I could be wrong on that.

A complete lack of good leadership and governance here. They should all be embarrassed. At least they got their bonds to play with though.


I thought it was a successful petition initiative that necessitated a vote?

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby WoodDraw » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:58 pm

Highlander wrote:
WoodDraw wrote:Well the leadership has been horrible here. They're putting it to a vote even if they have private funding. I think the mo supreme Court also held that quasi governmental fees didn't count towards the Hancock act. But I could be wrong on that.

A complete lack of good leadership and governance here. They should all be embarrassed. At least they got their bonds to play with though.


I thought it was a successful petition initiative that necessitated a vote?


My understanding is that the council promised a vote after the citizens for responsible government made a mess of everything. Back in 2014 or so? And then basically ignored it until they got through all of the bonds they wanted. And that's why they hopped on the private plan, so they didn't have to go pass more bonds. But they had already agreed to a vote.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby WoodDraw » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:07 pm

Basically my understanding is this, dumbed down:

1. KC started talking about a new airport
2. The typical groups came out against, did a petition drive
3. The city agreed to hold a vote, assuming they would have to under state law anyway
4. City had more priorities, like passing the bonds, and asked everyone to hold off on anything involving money until they were over
5. Bonds all pass
6. City goes yay, now airport time
7. Private financing deal comes out, city goes fuck, we have to vote anyway

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby ldai_phs » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:31 pm

Heard my first New KCI Terminal Radio Commercial Today!!!

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby im2kull » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:26 pm

KCPowercat wrote:Crazy to think these buildings wouldn't have been designed with backup utilities .


It wouldn't matter given that the problem (A broken water main) is beyond the scope of the local buildings utility infrastructure.

The misconception that having backup utilities for the building itself would avert any problems with failed water mains outside is like saying that having two runways at an airport would avert a shutdown in the event of a bomb threat to the terminals. A failure of one means the other fails automatically regardless of any backup systems in place...because the airport feeds the runways much like a city water main feeds the service branches that flow to individual buildings.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby WoodDraw » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:50 pm

im2kull wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:Crazy to think these buildings wouldn't have been designed with backup utilities .


It wouldn't matter given that the problem (A broken water main) is beyond the scope of the local buildings utility infrastructure.

The misconception that having backup utilities for the building itself would avert any problems with failed water mains outside is like saying that having two runways at an airport would avert a shutdown in the event of a bomb threat to the terminals. A failure of one means the other fails automatically regardless of any backup systems in place...because the airport feeds the runways much like a city water main feeds the service branches that flow to individual buildings.


Thank you for this. In the midst of our new conspiracy group.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby StrangerThings » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:08 pm

A few weeks ago I commented on a KC Star article about needing a new airport. I mentioned how unsafe it is being able to pull a vehicle up that close to the building/gates. I was quickly told I was paranoid and a conspiracy theorist! Wtf? Some real winners to be seen in the comments section of the star.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby flyingember » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:48 pm

It's a conspiracy to have an airport where you could shoot straight into the airport from a car? There's plenty of unrealistic junk security things out there we protect from, but line of sight isn't one of them.

There's plenty of domestic nuts of all political persuasions that live across the midwest.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby im2kull » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:04 am

StrangerThings wrote:A few weeks ago I commented on a KC Star article about needing a new airport. I mentioned how unsafe it is being able to pull a vehicle up that close to the building/gates.


It'd be more unsafe to have a central security area, that anyone could enter, full of hundreds of passengers waiting like ducks in a barrel to be shot or blown up. That's the bigger problem.. and probably the reason that TSA themselves says that KCI's current arrangement of security points spread through the gates is actually the model system as far as actual security is concerned.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby Highlander » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:50 am

im2kull wrote:
StrangerThings wrote:A few weeks ago I commented on a KC Star article about needing a new airport. I mentioned how unsafe it is being able to pull a vehicle up that close to the building/gates.


It'd be more unsafe to have a central security area, that anyone could enter, full of hundreds of passengers waiting like ducks in a barrel to be shot or blown up. That's the bigger problem.. and probably the reason that TSA themselves says that KCI's current arrangement of security points spread through the gates is actually the model system as far as actual security is concerned.


Any airport in the US including KCI in its current configuration provides anyone that has even a little bit of organizational skills and armament the opportunity to kill a lot of people. I don't believe one configuration is any safer than the other - there are always going to be trade-offs and KCI actually has long queue's too - it wouldn't take a lot of research to figure out when they max out.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby ztonyg » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:51 am

WoodDraw wrote:Basically my understanding is this, dumbed down:

1. KC started talking about a new airport
2. The typical groups came out against, did a petition drive
3. The city agreed to hold a vote, assuming they would have to under state law anyway
4. City had more priorities, like passing the bonds, and asked everyone to hold off on anything involving money until they were over
5. Bonds all pass
6. City goes yay, now airport time
7. Private financing deal comes out, city goes fuck, we have to vote anyway


The city really messed up here. As I've mentioned before, no other city anywhere else in the country (except for specific instances like Burbank, CA) have agreed to hold a vote on airport capital improvements. It's really a bad plan to allow the public (which generally doesn't know all of the intricacies of airport security, management, etc.) to be directly involved in a major infrastructure project of this nature.

New stadiums, sure. New airport terminal shouldn't come to a vote.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:30 pm

im2kull wrote:
StrangerThings wrote:A few weeks ago I commented on a KC Star article about needing a new airport. I mentioned how unsafe it is being able to pull a vehicle up that close to the building/gates.


It'd be more unsafe to have a central security area, that anyone could enter, full of hundreds of passengers waiting like ducks in a barrel to be shot or blown up. That's the bigger problem.. and probably the reason that TSA themselves says that KCI's current arrangement of security points spread through the gates is actually the model system as far as actual security is concerned.


I'm not too worried about people with guns as there's no way to prevent this in any airport unless you've got metal detectors at point of entry. I'm more referring to the fact anyone can load up a panel van full of explosives and park it 30 ft from hundreds of people waiting in line or sitting and waiting for a flight. One TSA security check point is by far the most efficient method.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby flyingember » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:18 pm

I bet the exterior walls are designed to resist that kind of attack. If someone is insistent much easier to jump out and run inside.
A domestic lone attacker with an improvised device forcing their way through security is the most likely risk we face.

It's probably 30 seconds from entry to being in a secure area packed with hundreds of people if one is lucky enough. The problem here is the exit gate that's usually wide open as lots of people get off a plane.

In many airports the design is setup so there's little reason to be near the exits so a "shifty" character ready to run through can be identified easily. In KC you have people standing right outside them constantly.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:49 pm

I don't think anyone thought a device in a van could do that kind of damage in the Oklahoma City bombing. Same situation outside of MCI would be utterly devastating. It sucks to have to think about this crap, but I don't see the world getting anymore peaceful!

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby flyingember » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:28 pm

StrangerThings wrote:I don't think anyone thought a device in a van could do that kind of damage in the Oklahoma City bombing. Same situation outside of MCI would be utterly devastating. It sucks to have to think about this crap, but I don't see the world getting anymore peaceful!

An armed assault is ~2x more likely

https://www.theguardian.com/news/databl ... since-1970

The world has gotten dramatically more peaceful since the 1970s

They use the OKC bombing as an outlier. And given it's clear potency, you really can't protect from it except with more distance for more people, and a new terminal would help there by moving people away from the driveways. We learned from mythbusters that barriers to a degree can replace distance when you're talking about shockwaves. So a structure where you have some kind of notable wall between the entry hall and the gates could help here. A major attack is a different subject, but a suicide bomber would be less impactful with better separation of people into more spaces.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby TheBigChuckbowski » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:42 pm

Why is the airport under any more threat than P&L, Westport, a sporting event or concert?

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby WoodDraw » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:14 pm

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:Why is the airport under any more threat than P&L, Westport, a sporting event or concert?


It's a very weird digression that makes no sense.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:30 pm

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:Why is the airport under any more threat than P&L, Westport, a sporting event or concert?


I don't think anyone is saying it is? If we are going to build a new airport, security and people's safety should be addressed. It won't be long until P&L and Westport have metal detectors.


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