We need a new airport!!!

[pash]

.

[mean]

It'd be a lot easier just to listen to the radio and take notes. I could rent a 172 from Lee's Summit and fly the pattern around MKC and listen to everyone coming in and write down what they do. "Kansas City tower, Cessna niner niner bravo is requesting to stay in the pattern and repeatedly do touch-and-goes until out of fuel."

Good times.

[im2kull]

Actually, the airport study specifically pointed out those two things as being at risk of failure due to age and needing major work. Plumbing alone is a big deal since that could mean a major underground project. I didn't just make that up.

Proof that you didn't just make that up...

Why? Because the plumbing "Problems" (Recurring maintenance that should have been done and wasn't for whatever reason) that were in all the reports never mentioned anything underground. Oh and even if it did, it's not anywhere near being a project worthy of wrecking 3 terminals and building a new one at a cost of over a billion dollars. The biggest plumbing project you can imagine probably only weighs in at a million dollars or less. Yes, a million. Trust me, I just finished working with a project consisting of deep underground (5ft on the shallow end and 25 at the deepest) renovation work that was extremely extensive (Full replacement of existing utilities), highly technical work on massive 16" water mains, 3' fiber optic lines, 8" sanitary sewers, 24" storm sewers draining an airfield much larger than anything KCI has, multiple underground tanks..the largest of which was 30k gallons...which is freaking huge...and it came up to a total cost of less than $400k. Even after 2 1/2 months of on site work and 6 months of planning using the most technologically advanced, modern, cutting edge methods and materials. Yep. That's reality. Plumbing is expensive if you're talking in the scope of tens of thousands of dollars, but it doesn't go far beyond that. The only reason you get figures that you must be dreaming of in your head is because *someone* is trying to gouge you, and you not knowing any better are falling for it. Enter the billion dollar terminal proposition. Someone stands to profit a lot, or else we wouldn't be discussing this and the push for a new terminal wouldn't exist. And that someone is not yourself, myself, any taxpayer, or the general public.

This did not happen.

Explain

[KCPowercat]

A new one on my last KCI visit. Scanning system down in one gate, so scanned in another gate then paraded in groups through unsecured space to the gate flying out. Very secure.

Gotta love KCI.

[flyingember]

This did not happen.

Explain

The cost is laughably unrealistic from facts available on the ground.

The city overflow project is doing 16 foot deep tunnel at $10,000 per foot. It's going to be 13000 feet long. One 9400 foot 30" main is $5 million.

Either you're grossly unaware of the real costs or this is a REALLY small project with your underground work going from 5 to 25 feet deep in a foot distance (sounds more like a lined well) and the 30k tank is used and sits above ground.

Just the billed labor for a team of 5 could exceed half your number. Less than $100 per hour and you can't pay the admin overhead costs. 2.5 months is 400 hours per person.

My guess is $400k is a real number but that's just the cost of a small portion of work.

[aknowledgeableperson]

"Just the billed labor for a team of 5 could exceed half your number. Less than $100 per hour and you can't pay the admin overhead costs."

I have a friend who did some engineering overview for a few city projects years back. This was the type of work that he performed for the city before he retired. With the city his pay was good but not like the amount the city paid to the engineering firm for his services. And that amount was quite a few dollars north of $100.

So much for outsourcing.

[flyingember]

"Just the billed labor for a team of 5 could exceed half your number. Less than $100 per hour and you can't pay the admin overhead costs."

I have a friend who did some engineering overview for a few city projects years back. This was the type of work that he performed for the city before he retired. With the city his pay was good but not like the amount the city paid to the engineering firm for his services. And that amount was quite a few dollars north of $100.

So much for outsourcing.

Outsourcing actually makes sense when you need specific skillsets short term.

Like the streetcar we needed train experts for a portion of time. The tax covers installation labor only once. So the city brings in outside experts rather than have to hire/fire someone for this project or put someone not perfectly suited that already works for the city.

Knowledge costs money.

By contracting a portion of mistakes or overages can be born by the outside firm. Part of the outsourcing price is that insurance.

[brewcrew1000]

Just FYI
Frontier has added flights to Philly, Atlanta and Chicago. This will be good for driving down prices.

[aknowledgeableperson]

"Outsourcing actually makes sense when you need specific skillsets short term."

Oh, I agree with that. Just that in this case, and others, the city still has the work to do and always will.

[im2kull]

This did not happen.

Explain

The cost is laughably unrealistic from facts available on the ground.

The city overflow project is doing 16 foot deep tunnel at $10,000 per foot. It's going to be 13000 feet long. One 9400 foot 30" main is $5 million.

Either you're grossly unaware of the real costs or this is a REALLY small project with your underground work going from 5 to 25 feet deep in a foot distance (sounds more like a lined well) and the 30k tank is used and sits above ground.

Just the billed labor for a team of 5 could exceed half your number. Less than $100 per hour and you can't pay the admin overhead costs. 2.5 months is 400 hours per person.

My guess is $400k is a real number but that's just the cost of a small portion of work.

Yawn. It happened. It cost less than 400k to do. Why? Because we were the contractor. That was the actual cost involved. Sure the bid was for a million and a half, but hey..that's my point. You can't trust bids or any reports provided by a for-profit business as an unbiased, otherwise accurate estimate of what something will actually cost. I'm telling you right now, you could replace all the old, worn utilities in all three terminals at KCI for a few million tops, and do the exterior work for a similar amount. There's no way in hell that you can claim that spending a few million, or even tens of millions for that justifies (Due to cost) the full replacement of the terminals at well over a billion dollars. Not if you're simply wanting to do routine renovation work to keep a building functioning as usual. A BILLION DOLLARS. Think about it. Utility work is cheap. In-place renovation work is cheap. The majority of it is material and man-hours. It's not rocket science. Anything that's not cheap and in the order of 750+ Million dollars isn't a renovation or restoration, it's a money grab for an entirely new project. Someone's pet project. Something that amounts to a whole new airport...and not just a bare bones renovation (As they are trying to say it is).

Here's a picture of a *Small* part of the project I mentioned. So yes, it happened. The storage tanks are underground. The utilities are underground. Everything was from the 1950's-1990's and was completely removed, the site cleaned, and reinstalled with updated materials, following modern specifications and the most forward thinking industry standards, back underground in an improved and highly efficient manner. Cake. Easy. Cheap money.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Cost to a contractor is quite different than the cost to the project owner. So you made a profit of almost 300%, good for you. It still cost the owner $1.5M.

[Downtowner]

After 15 years, I moved from KC to Texas. I used to be a big fan of KCI as convenient, easy, etc. I recently flew to Chicago with a SW stopover in KC. Horrible. Being trapped in that crappy low ceiling SW crap-space was awful. The electric outlets near seats didn't work. Bathrooms were in bad shape. Terrible cart food. Crowded, loud. As to what our airport can be, take a look at the new DAL. With the exception of their parking, it's what KCI could be after bulldozing that 70's dump.

[Highlander]

After 15 years, I moved from KC to Texas. I used to be a big fan of KCI as convenient, easy, etc. I recently flew to Chicago with a SW stopover in KC. Horrible. Being trapped in that crappy low ceiling SW crap-space was awful. The electric outlets near seats didn't work. Bathrooms were in bad shape. Terrible cart food. Crowded, loud. As to what our airport can be, take a look at the new DAL. With the exception of their parking, it's what KCI could be after bulldozing that 70's dump.

Absolutely agree. We were in KC over the holidays and I took my daughter (who lives in Austin but has flown all over the US and Europe) to the airport to fly to LA. We made sure she got through security OK and left - an hour later we got a text saying "this airport sucks, worst I've ever been in". I don't think people from KC understand how awful KCI seems to everyone else in the country. It's convenient to a select few but it is so lacking in amenities and a decent place to wait for one's flight that it regularly shows up on just about everyone's Worst Airports in the US list. It's an anachronism that is decades past its effective usefulness.

[im2kull]

Cost to a contractor is quite different than the cost to the project owner. So you made a profit of almost 300%, good for you. It still cost the owner $1.5M.

Poor contracting is NOT an excuse to give misleading numbers on a public issue and prop up a poor, exaggerated cost estimate as the only option out there. There were bids from 350k up for this job. They could have chosen any of the lessor ones, but hey..it's political. Just like the KCI terminal situation which is why I brought it up. You're smoking crack if you don't think that Mark VanLoh and the KC Aviation Department isn't parading around this "1 Billion dollars to fix existing "Problems"" concept for anything other than personal gain.. and that it couldn't be done for significantly less.

[im2kull]

Less than 10% of the PAX at KCI are transfers...

So do you really want to retool an entire airport for the minority? Then what happens to the convenience that the majority enjoy?

[aknowledgeableperson]

Cost to a contractor is quite different than the cost to the project owner. So you made a profit of almost 300%, good for you. It still cost the owner $1.5M.

Poor contracting is NOT an excuse to give misleading numbers on a public issue and prop up a poor, exaggerated cost estimate as the only option out there. There were bids from 350k up for this job. They could have chosen any of the lessor ones, but hey..it's political. Just like the KCI terminal situation which is why I brought it up. You're smoking crack if you don't think that Mark VanLoh and the KC Aviation Department isn't parading around this "1 Billion dollars to fix existing "Problems"" concept for anything other than personal gain.. and that it couldn't be done for significantly less.

The City's policy on accepting bids is "lowest and best". Basically the City ALWAYS accepts the lowest bid unless the bidder is not qualified or has unacceptable conditions in the bid. If the lowest is not accepted or approved the City works it way up the ladder in bid prices. Almost always, if the lowest bid is rejected the bidder will file a lawsuit forcing the City to award it the contract. And, of course, contracts that size are approved by the City Council.
For me your claim is dubious. Do you have an ordinance # or contract # so one could look up the details to this project?

[KCPowercat]

Less than 10% of the PAX at KCI are transfers...

So do you really want to retool an entire airport for the minority? Then what happens to the convenience that the majority enjoy?

All passengers enjoy having amenities.

[bobbyhawks]

I fly out of KCI on average every other week. It absolutely blows and is embarrassing.

[DaveKCMO]

are decent-sized bathrooms really considered an "amenity"? i'm tired of this "use the ones outside of security" shit. it's 2015 and all the good stuff should be INSIDE of the secure area.

[flyingember]

Less than 10% of the PAX at KCI are transfers...

That minority is roughly equal to twice the population of KCMO.

Think about how many if that group wouldn't need to go through security if we had a different design.

On average that's 245 people per hour, every hour for 10 hours per day (I figure not many people are transferring late in the day or early in the morning at KC), that could have to go through security just to use the restrooms.